American Exceptionalism and Trayvon Martin

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... tionalism/

Writer of the RD.org piece above asks a very important question in his last paragraph.

I have no definitive answers on this matter. I did listen this morning to the hour long conversation on www.drshow.org. One of the panelists, Isabel Wilkerson makes repeated references to Thankful Baptist Church in her Pulitzer winner The Warmth of Other Suns. The transcript should be up at that site soon.
Thankful Baptist is about two blocks away from the house where my Mom and Dad were married in Rome in the late 40's; and bout five miles from the Fox Farm out Kingston HWY that is part of the iconography of my time on this earth.

As Tragic as the Martin/Zimmerman case is, Bad law, the Tea Party and the NRA are as to blame as Zimmerman. Still white and black families and other races in Gated communities all over America have to talk to one another; if it can't work in gated communities where can it; no apology for Gated Communities.
There are a lot of hard working honest striving white families who shouldn't have to live in anxiety for fear of stepping on politically incorrect dynamite when there are a rash of burglaries in a neighborhood and a justifiable reason to believe the culprits are people of color.
But none of that excuses Zimmerman and the perfect storm he found himself in

I'm sure Gene Scarborough has all the answeres on this one. but I confess I do not.

I do wish Diane Rehm if she comes back to this subject, will have Tim Tyson on the panel. Good panel this morning. but I think he could add something

[Stephen Fox]

I have started a discussion on this matter at baptistlife.com/forums FAith and Practice. My Parents were married in Rome, Ga near the Thankful Baptist Church Ms. Wilkerson celebrates in Warmth of Other Suns.
What happened in Sanford is tragic. Still on any given day there are highly charged incidents all across America and the majority of them have a much better solution than Sanford.
What happened there was tragic and I think the Tea Party and the NRA share great deal of the blame. OTOH folks have to start talking to one another in multi race neighborhoods. There are a lot of good folks out there who can tell their neighbors we have a visitor coming in for a few weeks and he is from such and such and will not be a threat to the neighborhood. White Folks should not have to live in anxiety over the possibility of stepping on racially charged politically incorrect dynamite when there are a rash of burglaries in the neighborhood and good reason to suspect they are being committed by youth of color.
Still in no way does that apologize for what happened in Sanford.
It is no secret The Deep South lives for SEC Football and on any given Saturday of 22 odd folks on the field, 15 or more of them are of color.
The Movie the Blind Side was box office success. Friday Night lights was of critical acclaim. The University system of the SEC can go a long way toward deflating these anxieties if they work harder with the communities from which they harvest their multimillion dollar franchises each fall.
Next Panel, Have Tim Tyson of Duke on the program with Isabel Wilkerson and Michelle Norris. And have a separate program with couple Coaches from UGA, Florida and Alabama. Read Howell Raines piece, Goodbye to the Bear. Ms. Wilkerson will like that one for reference

[Haruo]

I doubt if even the Tea Party or the NRA thinks that "Stand Your Ground" means "Chase somebody". And I imagine that on second thought the police officers who let Zimmerman go without a breath analysis are kicking themselves. This is the sort of case that can bring the Justice Department in to make sure you're fired. And, as far as I can tell from the evidence I'm aware of, with full justification.

[Stephen Fox]

is on the case:

Will be interesting to see what Pat Anderson, now editor of the Bill Moyers endorsed Christian Ethics Today makes of this in the months to come.
Anderson is from relatively nearby Lakeland Florida, with a Sociology degree from Furman, where he finished two years behind Marshall Frady. In particular he will be interested in the race history of the region supplied today by Isabel Wilkerson on drshow of NPR

The latest:


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... -zimmerman

[Stephen Fox]

at the RD.org site:

I agree with Anthea and disagree with Anthea, which is where I always come down whenever these types of discussions ensue. When was the last time we heard about an upper class or even upper middle class African-American being gunned down in this way in this country? And yet we hear about lower to middle-class people, of all colors, being gunned down by the police and each other in America all the time.
The Trayvon tragedy occurred, apparently, because a sociopath in a state where you can carry a gun if you're a sociopath, and where there is a law on the books (thanks to the NRA)that says you can kill just about anybody if the dead guy started the fight.
The problems are not racial, they are about class (1) and the fact that we have allowed demagogue politicians and ideologue justices to foist a perverted interpretation of the second amendment on the country (2).
Does race come into it? Of course. But only insofar as the mass of us allow the capitalist elite in this country to keep pitting us against each other as a way to control the rage that we should rightly be directing against them. The masters, (admittedly mostly white but now bolstered by the African-American elites of whom Obama is the epitome)sell us the guns; sell us the idea through the media that guns can solve our problems; sell white folks the idea that young black men are crackheads and rapists and, also, sell white folks the idea that if Black folks respond with righteous indignation, they are over-responding; sell white folks the idea that no matter how poor and oppressed they are, they have no common ground with Black or other minority folks, because, guess what? they're white and that fact alone puts them ahead of the game!
But, Anthea, poor white folks are not ahead of the game, and, increasingly, they know it. We have to come together in this country, and it has to be a coming together about something other than race. The struggle to come is the class struggle, let us not let incidents like the tragedy in Sanford, FL divide us. The rich are killing us all - black, white and brown - and if we're going to fight, I think the time has come to find some new language.

Respectfully,
Rick Prose

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/7268/9/

[Haruo]

The Evergreen Association of American Baptist Churches Board meeting on Saturday, March 24, 2012 asked that justice be sought in the slaying of Trayvon Martin in Florida. The Board is concerned that a young black man was targeted and undue force was used against him in whatever altercation happened the evening he was killed. The Board is also concerned that this was a case of racial profiling resulting in no arrest. In this case laws that allow someone to use deadly force against another without arrest is abuse of power. The Evergreen Association of American Baptist Churches is calling for the arrest of George Zimmerman.

From Facebook comments:

I think this wasn't meant to be a call to JUST arrest George Zimmerman. Developing evidence that crimes were committed (if, as it certainly seems, they were), especially if, as video evidence suggests, police may possibly have been complicit in creating the "broken nose, etc." cover story, and prosecuting the criminals would be much more important. Zimmerman WAS arrested, taken to a police station in handcuffs, and then released without charge. I share the stated concerns of the Board, but justice demands much more than an arrest, which is perhaps not the best choice of demands in response to the concerns.

I can't understand why George Zimmerman was not arrested the night of the slaying! I pray that strong seekers of justice will never give up until justice is realized.
Good for you and the Evergreen Board!! To whom did you address your call for justice?

Such a sad reminder of how many of us do carry within us unjust feelings against one type of persons or another. I think it's a call for self-examination!

lood samples could have been collected from Zimmerman, just as they were from Martin. IMHO, the real concern, and the more dangerous criminality, if it can be proven, is police complicity in covering up the facts of the homicide. Police with impunity are a deadly threat to society.

[James]

The critical question, under the Florida law is this, Would Trayvon have been justified in shooting Zimmermon if T had had a gun. Z was stalking T. T had a right to defend himself so even if he did hit Z he was justified under the law. So, if they had both had guns, they would have been fully justified in stageing a gunfight in the middle of the street with bullets flying in every direction. The Florida law is an exercise in thoughtless stupidity.

[Gene Scarborough]

Stephen---

With your usual flair for name dropping you brag, in a way, about your responses elsewhere and put them here for your worship. It scares me when your first post said I would have an answer! I don't.

This has been obsessing the national news talking heads. It has drawn public protests from cities far away. It is the worst scenerio of possible white-hunting-black-youth to "the black guy was really a hood and drugie." As usual when news and a porrible criminal case is tried in the media with little evidence in hand, you get a lynch mob / racist baiting bunch of people yelling at one another.

The news channels have viewership and sell commercials to get rich.

The one thing I see is Governor Jeb Bush saying, "The law was not meant to promote murder."

From a conservative Republican, that is a strong statement. Too much of conservatism these days is hidden racial hate and the constant baiting and name calling that all Democrats are liberal---whatever that really means.

The fact is:

A young man is dead and shot through the chest
Neighbors don't have a clear picture either
A gun toting self-appointed white do gooder had the gun in his hand
People are mad and anxious over this whole deal
The truth will eventually come out despite lawyers and racists putting their own spin in favor of their guy

I withold judgement and pray for the parents filled with grief that their son is gone---just like good soldiers in the MIddle East---for no good reason and too much violence in all of us.

[Dave Roberts]

The great tragedy here is allowing an armed, untrained citizen to play vigilante. Zimmerman is an expression of the idea that we all need a gun to protect ourselves and our neighborhoods. I am a gun owner, and I am trained to use a firearm. Do I carry one regularly? No. The reason is that if I ever pull one out, I must without question be prepared to take a life. This seems a tragedy for all concerned.

[Haruo]

The critical question, under the Florida law is this, Would Trayvon have been justified in shooting Zimmerman if T had had a gun. Z was stalking T. T had a right to defend himself so even if he did hit Z he was justified under the law. So, if they had both had guns, they would have been fully justified in stageing a gunfight in the middle of the street with bullets flying in every direction. The Florida law is an exercise in thoughtless stupidity.

I agree that the Florida law is stupid. However... Given that as you say Z was stalking T, with no provocation apart from his own fears, and had actually been asked not to do so by the police, it looks to me like if both were armed T had more justification for shooting Z than the other way around. Which raises huge questions about the way the police handled Z after he had actually killed T.

[James]

Haruo, I agree completely. This law, taken to its extreme encourages everyone to reenact his or her own shootout at the OK corral.

[Gene Scarborough]

One problem: the guy who got shot has real blood and never gets up in this case = total tragedy and craziness!!!

[Stephen Fox]

allegedy said last night Trayvon had Zman down and was trying and was in Zman's pocket goin for the pistol; that Trayvon initiated the physical altercation and at that point Zman feared Trayvon would get the pistol and kill Zman. A fair minded person who watched said Zman's brother made strong case for his brother's self defense at the time it had elevated to that point.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0 ... -shooting/

Still that does not excuse Zimmerman's alleged activity to that point.

The NY Times has scathing oped today about Gated community mentality.

I admire jesse Jackson for a lot of things, mostly his friendship with Marshall Frady; Frady one of the most notable graduates of Furman University and a Baptist Preacher's son. Thornton knew his Father Yates Frady.
Jackson had the main eulogy at Frady's funeral in 04

But Jackson does not come over well in the documentary Street Fright about Street James and Cory Booker in the Mayoral Contest for Newark, N. J. a few years ago.
In that race Jackson played George Wallace 60's style precinct politics for James against the lighter skinned and clearly more progressive and capable Cory Booker.

[Stephen Fox]

The conversation there with Berry Students donning Hoodies

http://rn-t.com/pages/full_story/push?a ... t_18053302

Rome home of www.isabelwilkerson.com; her Mother's roots in Thankful Baptist church

[linda]

Having lived where almost all men and lots of women carry firearms, I still don't get this whole shooting.

We had training for neighborhood watch. The key word was watch. Don't speak to, confront, or follow. Watch, and call the pd.

Had Z followed training there would have been no incident.

[ET]

The critical question, under the Florida law is this, Would Trayvon have been justified in shooting Zimmermon if T had had a gun. Z was stalking T. T had a right to defend himself so even if he did hit Z he was justified under the law. So, if they had both had guns, they would have been fully justified in stageing a gunfight in the middle of the street with bullets flying in every direction. The Florida law is an exercise in thoughtless stupidity.

Haruo, I agree completely. This law, taken to its extreme encourages everyone to reenact his or her own shootout at the OK corral.

And such shootouts have happened where? Does one tragedy make a law bad?

Some interesting thoughts on the incident: Tragic Scenarios

[Timothy Bonney]

The great tragedy here is allowing an armed, untrained citizen to play vigilante. Zimmerman is an expression of the idea that we all need a gun to protect ourselves and our neighborhoods. I am a gun owner, and I am trained to use a firearm. Do I carry one regularly? No. The reason is that if I ever pull one out, I must without question be prepared to take a life. This seems a tragedy for all concerned.

Yes, when Zimmerman left the car with a loaded gun in his possession when there was no need to leave the car he set up the situation for someone to get shot. He'd been told not to follow Trayvon and he chose to do so anyway. It seems to me that there needs to be consequence for making such foolish choices which cost a young man his life.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I went to a "prayer vigil" at the predominantly black St. James UMC this afternoon. A handful of Black Baptist pastors spoke along with the female senior minister at St. James UMC - one of the best preachers I've ever heard, a former Baptist from the Fort Worth area who went to SMU's Perkins and became an ordained UMC minister. The Cowboy-hat wearing Rabbi Fuller also spoke as did the pastor of the Metropolitan Community Church.

I put prayer vigil in quotation marks because the service was unlike any prayer vigil that I have ever been to. There was quite a bit of singing and much lively preaching and talk about from the crowd.

Unfortunately, there were few white faces other a couple peace activists, a community organizer, and my family.

Michael Bell of Fort Worth, the former BGCT president and first African-American president of the BGCT, was the keynote speaker. He started off with a very thought provoking quote from a recent NYT column. Here it is:

While the youth’s supporters declare in solidarity “We are all Trayvon,” the question is raised, to what extent is the United States also all George Zimmerman?

[Gene Scarborough]

This incident is further proof of how racially divided we still are in this nation. The Civil Rights Act cannot instantly stop years of speculation that "black is evil."

My own Grandmother, a Furman Women's College graduate, shocked my mother, a Carver School of Missions graduate, by telling her, "Lucretia, you know negroes have no soul!"

Many have posited that the sign put on Cain for killing Abel was that his skin turned black.

It is part and parcel of humanity and culture to speculate and find causes for evil. We would be better advised that skin comes in all colors. Even white people strive for a good sun tan in an attempt to be less white!

[Dave Roberts]

I do not have a full explanation for a number of things. It appears that George Zimmerman got out of the car with no legal authority and sought to detain or challenge Trayvon Martin in some way. My first response is that none of us know how we would respond to someone who gets out of the car and in our faces. Was Trayvon Martin simply defending himself in the face of a perceived threat? There is so much we do not know and so much information we do not have in this story. This should not be a racial issue. It should be a reflection of society that lives in fear of one another. Politicians and news media seem bent on creating a climate of fear in the names of votes and ratings. That may be a place we need to be checking.

[Timothy Bonney]

It shouldn't be a racial issue David. But I believe the fact the the police didn't arrest Zimmerman for a potential crime is being viewed as a potentially racially motivated action. I personally have a hard time believing that if the colors had been reversed and that if a black man had shot a white guy that he'd not have been arrested and charged.

[Dave Roberts]

It shouldn't be a racial issue David. But I believe the fact the the police didn't arrest Zimmerman for a potential crime is being viewed as a potentially racially motivated action. I personally have a hard time believing that if the colors had been reversed and that if a black man had shot a white guy that he'd not have been arrested and charged.

Much of the controversy seems to hinge on a FL law regarding rights of self-defense. I am certain that race entered the equation, but there seems much legal confusion over Zimmerman's claims of having acted under a unique FL statute. It gets messy.

[Timothy Bonney]

Much of the controversy seems to hinge on a FL law regarding rights of self-defense. I am certain that race entered the equation, but there seems much legal confusion over Zimmerman's claims of having acted under a unique FL statute. It gets messy.

I've heard about that. The law sounds mind boggling. I don't see how a man who went out of his way to have a confrontation can claim self-defense. Even if attacked he should be charged with manslaughter because he had no business playing vigilante.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/7283/53/

Would be interesting to see richard Land on panel with Chandler Davidson of Rice about the race pilgrimage, History and evolution; of Criswell, Jesse Helms and Judge Paul Pressler.

Pressler's problems with Bill Moyers and Marney, Marney at FBC Austin when Pressler's Father If I'm not mistaken member of the Texas St. Legislature.

Now that would be some interesting History
An interesting exercise.