Singing Christmas Trees--Tail Wagging Dog???

[Gene Scarborough]

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2011/11/24/1138784?sac=Local

The above article describes two main Christmas events in Fayetteville, NC. One takes place at Snyder Memorial which is huge and rich in a poor neighborhood among many of the city's finest and most affluent. They always have some personal testimonies from Military moms who have their husband overseas or killed in action. It is touching in every way and requires a ticket to attend. I have attended it some years back.

The other, which I have not attended, is simple and "first come first seated."

I have chatted with Snyder members. Some have honestly said, "This is so big and involved as to be all consuming." It is a big show, but does it really meet the needs of people living around them and suffering in a bad economy like you can't imagine?

Here is the big question: Do gala shows at Christmas and Easter detract the churches which do them from real ministry in real ways to the real hurts and struggles in the last 4 years of economic disaster---as well a death through war?

[Ed Pettibone]

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2011/11/24/1138784?sac=Local

The above article describes two main Christmas events in Fayetteville, NC. One takes place at Snyder Memorial which is huge and rich in a poor neighborhood among many of the city's finest and most affluent. They always have some personal testimonies from Military moms who have their husband overseas or killed in action. It is touching in every way and requires a ticket to attend. I have attended it some years back.

The other, which I have not attended, is simple and "first come first seated."

I have chatted with Snyder members. Some have honestly said, "This is so big and involved as to be all consuming." It is a big show, but does it really meet the needs of people living around them and suffering in a bad economy like you can't imagine?

Here is the big question: Do gala shows at Christmas and Easter detract the churches which do them from real ministry in real ways to the real hurts and struggles in the last 4 years of economic disaster---as well a death through war?

Ed: Yes! It really meets needs. Why would a Psych major ask? The "Entertainment" is a free gift to the community, including those who could not afford to pay for it. And each one I have seen has made the story of birth of Christ real to some for the first time.

[Dave Roberts]

I have mixed feelings on the dramas that are sometimes done. If it enhances the ministry and presents Christ to others, especially those outside the church, then it seems important to share. Churches can themselves get addicted, however, to doing a bigger and better presentation each year complete with angels flying (on harnesses) overhead and the full complement of animals marching down the church aisle. It needs to be examined each year to see if the purpose for which it was born is intact. However, churches need to sometimes be spectacular to touch an entertainment culture. Let's just say that I'm conflicted on this one.

[Gene Scarborough]

Agreed---and hoping more will respond with their views of how we share Christ in the most real ways.

[Stephen Fox]

Helms had pretty much a state funeral at a CBF congregation. I don't know if Hayes Barton is studying BDW's bio of James Dunn or not, but all is not consistent in every CBF congregation.
I'm sure Snyder Memorial has some Jesse Helms mentality folks in its group that are there for the status.

On the other hand a good drama, even in the Lawrence Welk vein can inspire a neighborhood if all are welcome.

There is a strong history of Church Christmas pageants being all the art some neighborhoods get. My Mother had a grand history in that small way of trying to bring the arts to the communities in which she shared ministry with my Father.

Mark Olson now with the Leland Center had a good run at Snyder, so you have to hope some sensibility there remains; but I could not see how Olson, nor David Crocker by reputation could stomach now what Nelson Price is doing at Shorter College. I imagine they fought the takeover of SEBTS and would do the same if they lived in Rome Georgia.

That said on the question at hand I can do no better than Dave Roberts.

Let the Christmas Tree Sing and the Joy of the Coming of Jesus however crass and brassy; let it roll.
To paraphrase Diarmaid Macculloch; Peculiar Honors to the King.

Deck the Halls, Falalalalalalalalalalalalalalalallalalalalallalalalalalala

[Gene Scarborough]

I got a phone call and email from a good friend who attends Snyder. He was not happy with my criticism and quickly pointed out they had a ministry attached in that people bring canned goods for distribution to the poor. I had not heard of that aspect of the grand pageant.

Here is my email answer to him:

I guess things we love--when criticized--draw a quick defense. I was gladdened to know there is a ministry attached to the show.

I have often seen churches with bazaars and other things done in pleasant surroundings to raise money for the poor. The problem I have is that few of the knitters of goods are willing to get their hands dirty actually hanging out with the poor!

I remember that man we met at the steak house that you befriended and got to know. Even though we concluded he was not serious about coming into a real world of work and maturity, he had a real follower of Christ going to his house and loving his kids rather than criticizing from afar.

You might compare your ministry (which drew criticism from your SS class) to that of those who only want to sing in the great pageant or insist you "follow protocol." That is what exactly I am trying to spotlight.

The wonder of Christmas and Easter are special to me. I hope somewhere in the middle is an opportunity to minister to others inspired by God's gift to us. If it's all about a "big show," I think we miss the point of a small baby born in a stinky stable because there was no room for him at the Temple.

[Gene Scarborough]

If you want to do something besides act out Christmas---here is something Fayetteville might address:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/28/health/hiv-aids-southeast-rural-south-carolina/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

It cites the prevalence of HIV/AIDS in the South. Another is the Human Trafficing issue. One county north of me, Pitt (home of East Carolina University and Medical School), got a federal grant for special enforcement and detective work. They have found it in spades and in many dark corners of Greenville, NC!

[Stephen Fox]

Gene: I'm glad to see you back off a little on Snyder. With proper security if I lived in the vicinity I might visit the Cantata. I look a good show, smiling faces and bright well fed children and a couple trombones on occasion. Lot of Baptists have worked hard been a credit to the community for the most part and love to show it off a little.
I remember at Bethany my Dad and the church fixxed hundred 20 candy and fruit bags for distribution. I can still see Preston Williams and Shirley and kent on Front row that service. They're all dead now. Hardscrabble livin caught up with them; but it wasn't for lack of my Dad trying to do justice work in their neighborhood, and congrats to Bethany who did great work many times over the years, of which I am the beneficiary of one strong outreach initiative so public thanks. And whatever my disagreements with the late John Hamrick, Duke Grad, former Prez of the AmericanTextile Manufacturers Inst and liaison of FBC Gaffney to begin the Mission in the 50's that became Bethany; thanks to him as well.
So you see maybe something good is coming out of this exchange and the celebration at Snyder.

That said, wouldn't be bad for Snyder to bring Olson back for a weekend with his colleague Daniel Carro, recent Baptist President of the BWA, well known in ecumenical justice work internationally. Bring them in with David Crocker and President Obama's friend, the Kady something the promising City Councilwoman for a seminar on Justice and Charity.
If Crocker can't make it, I would be most happy to help them get in touch with Hugo Black's grandson, Stephen, at University of Alabama.
Maybe more Justice and Charity conversation later.

I'm glad you had at least one redemptive email exchange

[Dr. James Willingham]

I wish to comment on some of the members of Synder memorial church that I have known. A pastor and his wife, Rev. and Mrs. John Robinson, joined there, when they retired from active pastoring. Brother John, a vet of WWII, once reminded me that everything has a counter balance to it. I was telling of one Christian's response to a read prayer at a railroad, "That's the first time I ever heard God read to about a railroad," and John responded by telling about one rainy night during World War II. His unit of engineers were called to do a mine sweep of a field. Usually they had the chaplain to lead the members in prayer before undertaking such hazardous duty, but that night the chaplain was unavailable. Since all of the members of the unit knew the Lord's prayer, they joined hands and recited it together. John added, "Brother Jim, that was one time, when a recited prayer meant much to me." How true! The spirit of the the Robinsons is found in their son, Dr. Phil Spears and his wife. When my wife and I moved to Rockingham to pastor a church, the Spears (he was on the staff of the FBC) came by with a pie to welcome us. The Robinsons are certainly exemplary members. There is another whose name escapes me after nearly 30 years, but he was my hospital insurance salesman at the time. He often came by my church (at that time, Gum Springs of Moncure) and would set in the office and chat with me. One day he came by to see me about a problem he was confronting, but I was not there. He sat in the church yard and thought of what kind of advice I would give him, made a decision, an ethical one, and as a result some people wound up going to prison. He later told me about it what had happened. I must admit to feeling shaky at the thought that a man could think he knew me well enough to decide what kind of advice I would give. I felt shaky, because I thought what if I had given him the wrong impression and what if I gave someone else a wrong impression. That member from Synder (who attended faithfully) made a strong impression on me about being careful about what kind of impression I want to make on people. I might not agree with all that any church or ministry does, but when a church produces people like that insurance salesman and the Robinsons it won't go too far astray.

[Gene Scarborough]

Stephen---I'm not sure what the heck you really mean.

Willingham---I know EXACTLY what you mean and it is heart-warming to know how authentic advice and counsel is the basis of good decisions even when the connection does not take place!

Please remember: I am not against a great presentation of Christ. I just have my problems when it becomes such a focus that no one goes out to serve.

Anyone here remember Joseph Baley's famous "Gospel Blimp" parable????

[Ed Pettibone]

Stephen---I'm not sure what the heck you really mean.

Willingham---I know EXACTLY what you mean and it is heart-warming to know how authentic advice and counsel is the basis of good decisions even when the connection does not take place!

Please remember: I am not against a great presentation of Christ. I just have my problems when it becomes such a focus that no one goes out to serve.

Anyone here remember Joseph Baley's famous "Gospel Blimp" parable????

Ed: And Gene, I have an idea that it is more important that the service of others be between themselves and God, than between you or I.

[Gene Scarborough]

Agreed!!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

Agreed!!!!

Ed: So Why are you constantly harping about how others seek to serve Christ. Now when some folk calling themselves Christians insist that others including myself who do not follow their dogma can not be Christians, I have little time for them. But I have no more right to expect them to share my preferences than they have to tell me how and where to follow.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I think Matthew 23 makes it pretty clear that there are some empty ways to worship and follow God. The Pharisees were masters of the "Big Show."

Their approach was mind control and plenty of money paid them for a lack of total forgiveness.

[ET]

Here is the big question: Do gala shows at Christmas and Easter detract the churches which do them from real ministry in real ways to the real hurts and struggles in the last 4 years of economic disaster---as well a death through war?

Based on my own personal experience, Gene, my short answer to your question is an emphatic "NO!". I cannot speak for every program out there, but for 10 years of my life (from 10th grade through college and my early single days before I got married), I was part of a youth/college/career choir that presented large Christmas and Easter productions. I have no idea what it cost the church to put on the Christmas and Easter productions, but I know it was a significant amount of money. There were usually anywhere from 800-3000 professions of faith made each year from EACH of those productions, always more for the Christmas production than the Easter, as there are more people that will come to a Christmas program versus an Easter one.

I could also go into any number of benefits to my Christian life that I gained in participating in these productions, especially as a young person, but I'll leave those out for the sake of brevity.

Sadly to me, my former church now charges for all the tickets for the Christmas and Easter productions, and although the ticket prices are modest ($3-$12), I abhor the fact that they've gone the route of charging for something that was previously promoted to be a gift to those in attendance and was free to anyone who requested a ticket as long as tickets were available. In my rather strong opinion on the subject, a church has no business presenting the gospel for a charge. I don't care how fancy the production. If you have to charge for it, you're spending too much to "wow" the crowd. To me, once you start charging for tickets to the event, it becomes first and foremost an entertainment medium with the gospel secondary, no matter what the church says. I refuse to attend such events.

Furthermore, I find it objectionable to attempt to justify charging for tickets by saying something like "we've got low cost seats for those that might not have a lot of money". Whoop di do.....so the "rich" folks get the preferred seating with the best views while the "poor" folks get the crappy seats. How worldly of you!! If you're gonna charge for seats, just do a flat rate and be done with it instead of segregating your crowd based on ability to pay.

Oh, man...I've gone into rant mode. Think I'll wrap it up.

[Dave Roberts]

Sadly to me, my former church now charges for all the tickets for the Christmas and Easter productions, and although the ticket prices are modest ($3-$12), I abhor the fact that they've gone the route of charging for something that was previously promoted to be a gift to those in attendance and was free to anyone who requested a ticket as long as tickets were available. In my rather strong opinion on the subject, a church has no business presenting the gospel for a charge. I don't care how fancy the production. If you have to charge for it, you're spending too much to "wow" the crowd. To me, once you start charging for tickets to the event, it becomes first and foremost an entertainment medium with the gospel secondary, no matter what the church says. I refuse to attend such events.

Furthermore, I find it objectionable to attempt to justify charging for tickets by saying something like "we've got low cost seats for those that might not have a lot of money". Whoop di do.....so the "rich" folks get the preferred seating with the best views while the "poor" folks get the crappy seats. How worldly of you!! If you're gonna charge for seats, just do a flat rate and be done with it instead of segregating your crowd based on ability to pay.

Oh, man...I've gone into rant mode. Think I'll wrap it up.

Ed, we don't always agree, but I think you just hit it out of the park on this one. The segregation by ability to pay speaks clearly of the kind of events reflected in the Book of James--giving the floor to the poor while finding the best seats for the rich. You are right on target.

I too have been part of Easter and Christmas productions, and have enjoyed being a part of them. One of my strong disagreements with the finance committee in my last church was that the only way they would stand behind a modest production cost of $2,500 to $3,000 was that offerings taken at the door cover at least half or more of the cost. When it ceased to be a gift and was saddled with raising its own support, the production ceased to be a gift and became an effort to fund-raise to insure that it could be done again next year. Therefore, empty seats were revenue losses as were empty plates. If the church expects the very people it is trying to reach with the good news to pay for receiving it and does not believe in it strongly enough to support the efforts to share it, the church has lost touch with Jesus. Can you imagine demanding an offering before feeding the 5,000?

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed---

I think Matthew 23 makes it pretty clear that there are some empty ways to worship and follow God. The Pharisees were masters of the "Big Show."

Their approach was mind control and plenty of money paid them for a lack of total forgiveness.

Ed: I am sorry Gene I asked a question but typed a period. Here it is again, with the question mark;
I had written,"Gene, I have an idea that it is more important that the service of others be between themselves and God, than between you or I." and you replied Agreed!!!!

And now I ask "So Why are you constantly harping about how others seek to serve Christ ?"

And ET, thanks for your comments about your experience with being a part of one of a church's large productions. I also have some problem with "selling" Tickets. The churches with which I have been familiar, who do these large productions, give away tickets. Ant the purpose of the tickets is strictly to limit the crowds. I have no problem if they take up a free will offering.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed Pettibone; Hi Dave, I note you where addressing ET in you comment above but I want to agree with your point, if as I am assuming, the offering taken "at the door" was upon ones entrance not as they left. To me at the entrance door, it is an admission fee not an offering.

[Gene Scarborough]

I appreciate the thoughtful obserations shared thus far. This may bring more agreement than anything we have discussed in many a moon!

Ed---I just have great reservations over the free gift of Grace and Pardon Jesus offered and the kind of religion the Pharisees offered---especially to the rich with special obseqious reverence for their wealth that could support their nice lifestyle!

I see this in the mega church which is most prone to elaborate shows at Christmas and Easter in their sanctuaries without windows---more like giant theaters than houses of worship with stained glass allowing the beauty of the sun and man's skills with glass to give us that feeling of awe in the presence of God. In their place are video screens and elaborate sound systems.

ET---we are often at odds rather than in agreement. I think you see clearly on this one and have given a more than honest assessment!

[Stephen Fox]

Will be at the UMC church this Sunday at 6 pm. Bishop Willimon spoke there in the Spring of 07 I think it was not long after he came to Alabama

On Dec 18 at 6pm FBC Ft Payne Alabama will have its cantata.
The pastor there is a native of Chester, S.C. home of Eureka Mill made famous by the poems of Ron Rash. Pastor is a graduate of Clemson, and June of 05 was on cover of Baptists Today attending the BWA in London.
It is the church where Bobby Welch was baptized in early 60's; Alcap leader then pastor.
Among the members at FBC are Mary Anne Cole, a Tea Party organizer and State GOP committeewoman tight with Albert Lee Smith's widow, Eunie; and Cherilynne Crowe a Samford and Vanderbilt grad now on staff with the BJC in Washington, D.C.
The brighter lights of both congregations I am convinced would have reservations with the current administration at Shorter University just 50 minutes away.
At same time if Pulitzer's Annie Dillard can sing with fundamentalists, I guess I can too, least one a year if security is strong at front door.
FTR, the Methodist women always have a good soup bazaar bout the 2nd Friday in November annually. And bout 5 years ago I attended an interesting Sunday afternoon lecture and discussion on the Movies about the VAtican conspiracy and the Masons.

[Stephen Fox]

I attended at the Collinsville, UMC last night. The UMC pastor Tim Barnes did a grand job on Occupy.
Occupy till he comes while we are waiting on the Lord to Appear here in Advent.
One of the better homilies I have heard in the annual event.

Great children's choir.
My neighbor Lance Arnold made some salsa and it was magisterial as the entire Spread from which I took Liberally, along with Mark Morgan, the local Babdiss preacher's son and Duke Grad.
I sat with a lady from Arkansas and her granddaughter as the Mother was on duty with the Highway patrol. Coach L.D. Dobbins was situated near me eating off the piano keyboard cover. I offered to exchange places with him but he took a pass.

I Can't see how Snyder Memorial in all its grandeur coulda been a better experience than I had last night in my Mother's Hometown.
We took communion. I got the Bread from Johnna Traffenstedt, the Mayor's Daughter, and the Cup from Dr. Barnes.

[Gene Scarborough]

What have you done for the poor of Collinsville, Stephen?

At the least, the Snyder show is accompanied by the collection of food goods. Still not sure more could be done if they spent the time and effort directly relating to the poor of Fayetteville and those living all around their big church facility.

The social division between rich and poor is quite evident along with the crime and volitile issues of Fayetteville, NC. My wife's first cousin was City Manager for some years and is now glad to be doing such in Chapel Hill. He gained some grey hairs trying to deal with divisions of blacks / red-necks / military in that large town. No City Manager seems to last long there trying to please all the factions!

[Stephen Fox]

There came a point in Slingblade when Karl Childers told Doyle Hargraves that he was tired talking to him

Well your royal Bloviation, I share Karl's sentiment

[Gene Scarborough]

See you later 'Bama Boy!!!

The best to you and all your kin!!!! Have a blessed Christmas finding "peace on earth to men of good will."