NBC II live streaming now

[Chris]

Watching Tony Campolo on live stream.
http://newbaptistcovenant.org/

I sense I am listening to the same sermon Tony preached at the Chester Brown Conference in Spring of 2007 in Richmond. He's good, though.

[Chris]

"I love the old hymns. If I get to Heaven and find they have an overhead projector, I'm checking OUT!" ---Tony Campolo.

11/18/2011

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: see below

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I was at the Shanon Baptist church in Philly Thursday evening and from 10:00 AM till a bout 2:00 P.M. yesterday. I was sorry to miss the evening session to Hear Dr. William Shaw immediate past president of the National Baptist Convention, USA Inc.. I left early to get home and get some rest last night before our Association's Annual meeting this morning at 9:00 A.M, I did have the privilege of a personal discussion with Dr. Shaw for about 10 or 12 min at the close of the morning session, yesterday. That made the trip worth while to me. We agree that the attendance In Philly and at 2nd Ponce where both abysmally poor. Maybe the live streaming cut into the crowds. I and one other fellow where the only whites at Sharon, Thursday evening and yesterday morning. There where not more than 100 people in the Sharon BC auditorium which would seat at least 2000, on the main floor. And Chris in that place the three large screens where a blessing. Dr. Shaw said that when the date was set by the national planing team they realized it was not a good date for the Philly community as there where at least three large events that had been scheduled much earlier. He thought they did a good job of spreading out the the attendees in Atlanta so it wasn't quite so obvious how many empty seats there where.

I am glad to see Roy Medley (the General Secretary, of the ABC-USA) in the Pictures on the NBC website to which Chris provided the links. I would however rather have seem him in Philly much closer to his base of operation. And Chris since I was on the road yesterday evening do you know if Tony was speaking in Atlanta or in Philly. The time stamp on your 2 post are 22:07 (10:07PM) and (22:20) 10:20 PM, what was the actual time of Tony's presentation.

[Chris]

If my memory is correct, I was watching Tony Campolo live from Atlanta about 9pm EST on Friday night. Jimmy Carter made some concluding remarks from the same stage.

[Sandy]

Dr. Shaw said that when the date was set by the national planing team they realized it was not a good date for the Philly community as there where at least three large events that had been scheduled much earlier. He thought they did a good job of spreading out the the attendees in Atlanta so it wasn't quite so obvious how many empty seats there where.

If I recall, the big meeting in Atlanta was planned around some bi-annual meetings of some African American groups in order to have a fairly large crowd in one place, and the members of those groups made up about two thirds of the total attendance.

I watched a little bit of the live streaming, and that's not a bad way to go. Really, you can feel part of what is going on, if the camera work is done right, and it most definitely increases the exposure. One of these days, Baptists will get around to conducting business this way. Our Christian school association did it this year, at about 40 different places, from one central site in Chicago to at least four of its regions, and it went great and doubled the previous year's convention attendance.

I didn't watch enough of it to really comment much. It doesn't seem like there are very many Baptists interested in it, though, since there were a lot of empty pews in Atlanta, and a mostly gray and white headed crowd.

[Ed Pettibone]

Dr. Shaw said that when the date was set by the national planing team they realized it was not a good date for the Philly community as there where at least three large events that had been scheduled much earlier. He thought they did a good job of spreading out the the attendees in Atlanta so it wasn't quite so obvious how many empty seats there where.

If I recall, the big meeting in Atlanta was planned around some bi-annual meetings of some African American groups in order to have a fairly large crowd in one place, and the members of those groups made up about two thirds of the total attendance.

I watched a little bit of the live streaming, and that's not a bad way to go. Really, you can feel part of what is going on, if the camera work is done right, and it most definitely increases the exposure. One of these days, Baptists will get around to conducting business this way. Our Christian school association did it this year, at about 40 different places, from one central site in Chicago to at least four of its regions, and it went great and doubled the previous year's convention attendance.

I didn't watch enough of it to really comment much. It doesn't seem like there are very many Baptists interested in it, though, since there were a lot of empty pews in Atlanta, and a mostly gray and white headed crowd.

Ed; Sandy you are correct the NBC I, in Atlanta was scheduled to coincide with the overlapping conventions of four Black Baptist entities. Abd involved yet another predominantly black group in the arrangements. However Having been there, I have to question where you got the Idea that "those groups made up about two thirds of the total attendance" . I couldn't tell you if there where more blacks or whites. And of course some of the blacks where CBF and /or ABC and some of those may also be associated with one or more of the Black groups. And unfortunately registration figures will not confirm either your or my impression be cause many of those who had attended their denominational meetings where not aware that they had been asked to complete separate registrations for the NBC. I know this as a fact because there was confusion on this question among those of us working the NBC information booths on the first day.

I see by Googling New Baptist Covenant that there a number of comments about the disappointing attendance. I have not had time to peruse those as of yet . I plan to do that as soon as I post this.

[Timothy Bonney]

I was at NBC I. And I don't recall that the African-American Baptists out numbered the Anglo Baptists but then I tended not to think about color much in a national meeting since the ABC is multi-ethnic. I enjoyed NBC I and had a small part in promoting it in my part of the world.

Of course when you change denominations you lose touch with friends who are no longer attending the same meetings you are attending. I had a similar experience when I left the SBC many years ago. I still get a chuckle that I still get fundraising letters from MBTS and the annual invitation to join their seminary meal at the SBC that I've not attended for more years than I care to count. It is funny, they can find my new address but they never seemed to get that I was no longer in the SBC. I'm even now getting the fundraising letters for MBTS at my Methodist parsonage. Go figure.

[Ed Pettibone]

I was at NBC I. And I don't recall that the African-American Baptists out numbered the Anglo Baptists but then I tended not to think about color much in a national meeting since the ABC is multi-ethnic. I enjoyed NBC I and had a small part in promoting it in my part of the world.

Of course when you change denominations you lose touch with friends who are no longer attending the same meetings you are attending. I had a similar experience when I left the SBC many years ago. I still get a chuckle that I still get fundraising letters from MBTS and the annual invitation to join their seminary meal at the SBC that I've not attended for more years than I care to count. It is funny, they can find my new address but they never seemed to get that I was no longer in the SBC. I'm even now getting the fundraising letters for MBTS at my Methodist parsonage. Go figure.

Ed: Tim, SBTS does the same thing. Just last week we received two of the same mailing. One was addressed to Mrs. Trudy M. Pettibone and the other to Mrs. Trudy M. Pettibone . And yes they have previously been notified of Trudy's ordination. I do note that this time there is a slip to fill out with corrections. the give 10 options as to how future correspondence should be addressed, as follows. ____Mr. & Mrs. _____ Mr. ____MRS. _____Miss ____ Ms. _____Dr. ______Dr& Mrs. ____Rev. ____Rev. & Mrs ____Other____________________ . I will be returning this tear off with other checked and the blank filled in, Mr. J. Edwin and Rev. Mrs. Trudy U. Pettibone . For those who may wonder, I listed my name first, because my graduation from Southern was 6 years prior to Trudy's.

[Timothy Bonney]

I'd like to get off of MBTS' mailing list but I've never manged to accomplish that.

[Neil Heath]

Tim, I got off the SBTS mailing list years ago with a simple note on a reply card that was enclosed with a donation letter. I told them they wouldn't get another penny from me until they made some changes, starting with firing the President.

Since that day I haven't received a letter, the alumni magazine, or anything else from them. Apparently there was only one reason for staying in touch with an alum, and I removed it.

Neil

[Timothy Bonney]

Tim, I got off the SBTS mailing list years ago with a simple note on a reply card that was enclosed with a donation letter. I told them they wouldn't get another penny from me until they made some changes, starting with firing the President.

Since that day I haven't received a letter, the alumni magazine, or anything else from them. Apparently there was only one reason for staying in touch with an alum, and I removed it.

Neil

Obviously I need to make a more diligent effort to get off the list. You'd think me being a Methodist would be a big enough clue. But I guess another contact is in order.

[Sandy]

I saw a report somewhere in an article about the attendance, maybe in the Baptist Standard's coverage, that more than 1,000 people had logged on and watched the streaming coverage at some point. The day has arrived when filling a room, convention hall, or large church for a gathering such as this is no longer practical. If you want an event to have an impact, and get the message out, either stream it over the internet, or have a lot of sites set up where you can transmit it by satellite.

Personally, I must confess to not ever really having been all that interested in New Baptist Covenant, from the very start of it. The most interesting aspect of it for me has been observing the blending of the African-American Baptist groups into the mix. That's interesting largely because they tend to be much more conservative theologically than the caucasian Baptist groups that are involved, primarily CBF and ABC-USA, particularly regarding inerrancy, which they articulate and interpret in a manner common to the SBC's expression of it, and speaking in tongues, which, among Baptists, is almost uniquely practiced among African Americans.

Beyond "dialogue," and meetings which get Jimmy Carter behind the podium again, I don't see that this is accomplishing much. Having to make excuses about other events, and bad timing, for the poor attendance pretty much tells me that this movement, at least under Carter's leadership, is dead in the water. I'd at least have expected that in Atlanta, Jimmy and Rosalyn would have at least attracted a crowd that would have filled the modest-sized sanctuary at Second Ponce. But the outcome of this year's events glaringly points out that an overwhelming number of Baptists don't look to Carter as a spokesman, motivator, or leader of any kind, and aren't willing to invest much, even their time, in the New Baptist Covenant.

[Timothy Bonney]

Sandy, American Baptists aren't an anglo denomination. Only 40% of the denomination is white. Another 40% is African-American. While I'm not an American Baptist anymore I hate to see the denomination mischaracterized as a "white" denomination.

[Ed Pettibone]

Tim, I got off the SBTS mailing list years ago with a simple note on a reply card that was enclosed with a donation letter. I told them they wouldn't get another penny from me until they made some changes, starting with firing the President.

Since that day I haven't received a letter, the alumni magazine, or anything else from them. Apparently there was only one reason for staying in touch with an alum, and I removed it.

Neil

Obviously I need to make a more diligent effort to get off the list. You'd think me being a Methodist would be a big enough clue. But I guess another contact is in order.

Ed: Shoot Tim, in the 89-91 SBTS Catalog they show more Methodist students than American Baptist, 46 to 30, where 126 "other Baptist" and of course 2076 SBCers. They did not publish those figures in the Catalog for 95-96. Actually I still like to check the alumni news to see what is happening with some old friends.

[Timothy Bonney]

That is interesting Ed. I didn't know that there were ever that many UMC students at SBTS. I'm willing to bet that there are few there now since I don't believe that SBTS (or any SBC school) is on the approved seminary list now for UMC students who are candidating for ordained ministry.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: It is obvious that the planning for NBCII broke down some where but i do not believe it was with Carter. And Sandy, I consider your comment, "Beyond 'dialogue' and meetings which get Jimmy Carter behind the podium again, I don't see that this is accomplishing much. Having to make excuses about other events, and bad timing, for the poor attendance pretty much tells me that this movement, at least under Carter's leadership, is dead in the water", Is nothing more than a cheep shot at Carter.

For years I had heard folk say we need to do something to bring Baptist together but no one did much about it Until Jimmy called for the New baptist covenant. The 2008 meeting was the greatest gathering of Baptist out side of the SBC ever. I think perhaps to many of us just assumed that as well as it went off in 08 that i would be even better this time around, I somewhat blame myself for not having utilized contacts that I have to set a fire under some folk. I was the only one in Philly from the CBFNE and from the NYS, ABC-USA region . Of course I was not real happy with NYS ABC-USA the first time around there where to my best count only 7 of us in Atlanta for that one and three of the seven traveled in our car. Two couples flew. Five of us where on the regional Board of Missions. This time around I miscalculated by assuming that due to the Proximity of Philadelphia and Vally Forge that the PA and NYS delegations would be larger.

But I should have seen what wasn't happening with the lack of traffic on the NBC board here on BL.C.. I will say that I had warned some folk in Vally Forge that the Northeast meeting should not be held in Philadelphia, NYC, or Boston, because by far and away our churches and the bulk of the membership are not in LARGE
metropolitan areas and avoid them when possible. In our church we have one couple other than Trudy and I who ever go to"THE CITY", when we where further up state we had another couple who occasional went to "The City" but they also go to London, Paris an Rome !

[Sandy]

Ed, the whole New Baptist Covenant identity has been associated with Carter from the very beginning. The original gathering also featured Bill Clinton as well, mainly to draw press attention and perhaps puff up the numbers a bit. I noticed that Clinton is conspicuously missing from the event this time around. The attendance, or monumental lack of it as well as the characteristics of those who actually did show up, speaks volumes about the monumental lack of interest in the New Baptist Covenant on the part of 99% of the Baptists who are members of churches on the North American continent. Was my comment a swipe at Carter? Yeah. But think about it. Carter is featured in an interview style presentation at the main site of the whole gathering, in Atlanta, his home turf, along with his wife as a keynote speaker, and they couldn't fill a dozen rows of pews in a 1,200 seat sanctuary, even with doddering old gray heads, which were just about all that showed up.

Carter moved way over to the left of where most of the grass roots Georgia Baptists, who remain overwhelmingly loyal to the Southern Baptist Convention, find themselves. He has clearly chosen to identify with a group of Baptists that are a small, fringe segment of Baptist denominational life. The result of that is that when he lends his name to events, like the New Baptist Covenant, only a few answer the call and show up, because there aren't that many Baptists who have much of an interest in his vision of where Baptists need to go, and only a handful of those who are on the far left of the Baptist spectrum trust his leadership.

I never thought Carter was a bad president. He had a lot of leftover garbage that he had to deal with from the Nixon-Ford administrations, and a lot of Nixon's economic baggage had a negative effect on the economy during his presidency. Still, he managed to make some major strides in foreign policy, expecially in the Camp David accords with Israel and Egypt. It was Iran, where a revolution that came about because of previous president's mistakes in supporting a corrupt regime, that brought him down. His involvement with Habitat for Humanity was excellent. But his association with Baptists who are clearly further to the left than most has doomed any remote possibility that he could effect any kind of resolution or change among Baptists as a whole, or Southern Baptists in particular.

[Timothy Bonney]

It is always a bizarre experience to see the CBF through your eyes Sandy. You descriptions of the organization and Carter as being far to left can only be maintained when you are standing way off to the far right. In the wider Christian world the CBF is viewed as a bit right of middle or conservative moderates. Many on the left in the ABC were fearful any time anyone mentioned a merger with the CBF because there was a concern that they were too conservative for at least the left wing of the ABC. Among the seven sisters of the mainline the ABC is viewed as the most conservative followed by the UMC and the CBF is a tad more conservative than both.

The fact that you stand on the left politically and on the right theologically almost gives me whiplash sometimes. I have to look at the subject matter to remind myself which Sandy I'm reading (Left political Sandy or Right theological Sandy.) I"m not sure how you reconcile your two halves sometimes.

And I honestly wonder if your painting the CBF as far left lacks objectivity.

[Ed Pettibone]

Tim Bonney to Sandy "And I honestly wonder if your painting the CBF as far left lacks objectivity."

Ed: And Tim why do you wonder? Sandy's lack of objectivity regarding CBF seems quite obvious to me.

[Timothy Bonney]

Tim Bonney to Sandy "And I honestly wonder if your painting the CBF as far left lacks objectivity."

Ed: And Tim why do you wonder? Sandy's lack of objectivity regarding CBF seems quite obvious to me.

True Ed. I should have stated it more directly.

I often agree with Sandy politically. So it is even more the shock when I read his views on faith. The two sets of views often seem to contradict each other. And I don't see how "I had a bad experience with the CBF" = "the CBF is liberal." The two shouldn't be connected. Liberals, conservatives, and fundamentalists can all misbehave.

[Sandy]

I said Carter hangs out with those on the far left fringe of Baptist life. That doesn't specifically refer to CBF, since I didn't mention that in my post. Carter does have some involvement with people who are in CBF, though just through association, as far as I can tell.

I've read most of what Carter has written on both politics and theology. He's a big name, a Baptist, and a former President, which doesn't necessarily make him a good theologian. Most Baptists don't agree with his position on Israel and the Middle East, since he's obviously not a futurist. But he also runs very close to universalism in his views on the exclusivity of Jesus in personal salvation. He has a personal testimony of saving faith in Christ, but doesn't write like he believes Jesus is all there is. That puts him way over to the left of most Baptists.

The center of Baptist life is determined, at least theologically, by where Baptists find themselves collectively. Most Baptists, in terms of sheer numbers of members, are well to the right of CBF, and out of the entire Baptist family, you'll only find a handful who consider Carter a leader in Baptist life.

[Timothy Bonney]

The center of Baptist life is determined, at least theologically, by where Baptists find themselves collectively. Most Baptists, in terms of sheer numbers of members, are well to the right of CBF, and out of the entire Baptist family, you'll only find a handful who consider Carter a leader in Baptist life.

I see so the SBC gets to determine where the center is for Baptist because they are the largest? LOL I'm sure the ABC, NBC, others would find that interesting. But it seems odd Sandy as neither you or I are Baptists to be talking about the "center" as being the the "center" within one denominational family rather than the overall center of the faith. Also it it fails to acknowledge that if the center for Baptists is where the SBC says it is it has moved far to the right of where it used to be.

[Timothy Bonney]

You Sandy the more I think about your above statement the more confusing it would be. It would mean that "liberal" and "conservative" mean nothing outside the context of one individual Church/Denomination.

Are you in effect saying that there is no definition of theological liberal or conservative other than by looking to your left and right and seeing whom you are standing next to?