Money for considering female pastors

[Matt Richard]

The CBF of Missouri approved a measure on Sept. 17 in an attempt to encourage search committees to at least consider a female candidate when looking for a pastor -- offering a cash incentive.

http://www.wordandway.org/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=53

I'm not sure the pros would outweigh the cons in this proposal. Thoughts?

[Stephen Fox]

Very interesting question.

Any woman who can preach as good as Fleming Rutledge should get the call with no under the table schemes.

Maybe more version of the copastorate featured in October Baps Today

[Ed Pettibone]

The CBF of Missouri approved a measure on Sept. 17 in an attempt to encourage search committees to at least consider a female candidate when looking for a pastor -- offering a cash incentive.

http://www.wordandway.org/index.php?opt ... &Itemid=53

I'm not sure the pros would outweigh the cons in this proposal. Thoughts?

Ed: And Matt what do you see as the pros and cons?

[Haruo]

Matt, just in case you hadn't noticed, there are already 35 or so posts in the thread What a bargain! dealing with this CBFMO program. I do think your thread title is better, because it makes the topic clear, so I would encourage Alan and the other participants in that discussion to continue it here.

[Matt Richard]

Oops, my apologies! Perhaps this thread should be deleted to avoid repeated comments.

Ed, I agree with the intention, but not with the method. It doesn't seem 100% ethical to me to pay a church committee to consider anyone, even if the intent is to encourage an openness in supporting female pastors. The end does NOT always justify the means. That's my take.

[Haruo]

Oops, my apologies! Perhaps this thread should be deleted to avoid repeated comments.

Perhaps, but I think this thread title is much better. "What a bargain!" was a good title when the thread was brand new and the goal was to attract random readers, but it is just begging for more people to do what you just did, namely start a new thread because they don't realize there already is one. Your title makes that error much less likely, so I think it makes sense for new posts (even if they involve quotes from "What a bargain!") to appear here. It will take a little more work to quote that thread here, but if it's worth doing it's probably worth spending a little effort on. IMO. Of course, Neil may come along and undo my damage to his forum, in which case we can go back to the status quo ante.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed, I agree with the intention, but not with the method. It doesn't seem 100% ethical to me to pay a church committee to consider anyone, even if the intent is to encourage an openness in supporting female pastors. The end does NOT always justify the means. That's my take.

Ed: Matt to some extent I agree. Over in that other thread, I said I have never been real sold on affirmative action plans. Perhaps I should have qualified that a bit by saying "affirmative action plans that give minorities some sort of advantage, rather than those that concentrate on equal opportunity ". I don't know that any one else can make that distinction but as a EEO officer in a state agency it is rather clear. But Matt would reading the proposal as one to reimburse a church for the expense when considering a female candidate. Rather than "to pay them", to consider female make any difference to you. There is no question in my mind that some churches in CBF and even ABC-USA discriminate against calling women to the pastorate. But in either case the organizations intent is Equal Opportunity. Unlike Methodist and some other religious organizations, among Baptist the local organization is autonomous. Here the SBC is an anomaly.

I would have to see the MO plan in action to make a further judgement.

[Timothy Bonney]

Unlike Methodist and some other religious organizations, among Baptist the local organization is autonomous. Here the SBC is an anomaly.

I know that connectionalism isn't your cup of tea. But we sure do have a lot more women pastors than any Baptist group I know of.

[Ed Pettibone]

Unlike Methodist and some other religious organizations, among Baptist the local organization is autonomous. Here the SBC is an anomaly.

I know that connectionalism isn't your cup of tea. But we sure do have a lot more women pastors than any Baptist group I know of.

Ed: And Several of them trained in Baptist schools. I will stop there.

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed: And Several of them trained in Baptist schools. I will stop there.

Probably. And a few male clergy as well. But 12% versus 27% is a pretty significant difference.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: And Several of them trained in Baptist schools. I will stop there.

Probably. And a few male clergy as well. But 12% versus 27% is a pretty significant difference.

Indeed 15% difference is significant But giveen the fact that Methodist have by denominational policy had women in ministry much longer than any Baptist group it is not exceptional.

[Timothy Bonney]

Indeed 15% difference is significant But giveen the fact that Methodist have by denominational policy had women in ministry much longer than any Baptist group it is not exceptional.

I am not sure that is true. I believe American Baptists have had women clergy longer than the Methodists. It was not until 1956 that the General Conference of the Methodist Church (this is pre-UMC) approved full clergy rights for women.

The difference is in the appointment system. Once the decision was made to grant women full clergy rights then they were appointed to charges (congregations or groupings of congregations on a circuit) without reference to their gender.

[Tim Dahl]

Just something to point out...

I've seen a couple of people say this, not just Matt:

...to pay a church committee to consider anyone...

I don't think that gives a proper view of what is going on.

When I see something like, "They are paying committees to look at female candidates," I get a picture of some guy handing an envelope full of cash to the search committee chair. It sounds like the group is getting paid, able to keep the money, in some way benefits financially from the endeavor.

That isn't it at all.

Come to think of it, I've not seen anything describe exactly what the method of financial exchange is. My guess is that a church can be reimbursed by the CBFMO for the expenses incurred when interviewing a female candidate. I would go on to guess that receipts would be turned in, and any reimbursement would amount to the $$$ total of the receipts. I don't think they are going to pay the search committees anything, just reimburse them.

I've been thinking a bit more, and I wonder exactly how many churches might go for this. In my thinking, it will primarily be a church that is willing to seriously consider a female pastor. I'm sure there is someone in a church somewhere willing to use it as a teaching mechanism; but getting the whole committee to go for that may not be realistic.

Will there really be 5-9 (or however many people) committee members willing to take time away from their families at night to interview a non-viable candidate (for the educational value)? Again, I'm sure there may be one or two people out there; but I doubt their ability to talk a whole committee into doing it.

To be honest, I'm not expecting an huge upswing of female candidate interviews in MO. We only really change when it hurts too much to stay the same. I'm not sure our churches are there yet.

Tim

[Ed Pettibone]

Indeed 15% difference is significant But given the fact that Methodist have by denominational policy had women in ministry much longer than any Baptist group it is not exceptional.

I am not sure that is true. I believe American Baptists have had women clergy longer than the Methodists. It was not until 1956 that the General Conference of the Methodist Church (this is pre-UMC) approved full clergy rights for women.

The difference is in the appointment system. Once the decision was made to grant women full clergy rights then they were appointed to charges (congregations or groupings of congregations on a circuit) without reference to their gender.

Ed: And Tim note I only mentioned Methodist generically, not specifically the General conference or the UMC . Note: In 1866, for example, Helenor Alter Davidson was a circuit rider for the Methodist Protestant Church in Jasper County, IN. She later became the first ordained minister of any Methodist denomination. Starting at the end of the 19th century, the Methodist Protestant Church had not only begun to ordain women, but had also granted them full rights as clergy.

And I find noting of any Baptist organization of churches be it association ,convention or fellowship officially recognizing women clergy that early while in deed Martha Stearns Marshall (1726-1754) was a Separate Baptist preacher in the southern United States. She spread the gospel alongside her husband, Daniel Marshall (1706-84), who is generally regarded as the first great Baptist leader in the state of Georgia. She also is reported to have preached in meeting with her brother Sherbal Stearns.. I find no mention of her having the blessing of any group of baptist out side the churches pastored by Daniel and Sherbal.

So far the earliest that I find ABC in any of its three incarnations "Northern Baptist Convention* American Baptist Convention * American Baptist Churches -USA" Supporting Women in Ministry Is in 1913 with the start of Norther Baptist Seminary, now in Lombard, Ill . Of course the Northern Baptist Convention was not started until 1907. Interestingly, Northern Baptist Seminary was started by a church in Chicago as a conservative reaction to perceived trend toward liberalism in existing seminaries.

[Timothy Bonney]

Point taken Ed. I had forgotten about the Methodist Protestant Church which later remerged back into the Methodist Church.

I do still contend that the appointment system is an aid to the larger percentage of women clergy. Often in Baptist circles women feel a call, go to seminary, and then can't find a church to call them. So the prejudices of the local church carry more weight in the decision. I've known a number of Baptist churches that claim to be supporting of women in ministry but when it comes to calling a woman pastor they never do.

[Haruo]

Note: In 1866, for example, Helenor Alter Davidson was a circuit rider for the Methodist Protestant Church in Jasper County, IN. She later became the first ordained minister of any Methodist denomination.

I guess before 1866 they just hired Anglicans when they couldn't get by on the backs of the laity.

[Ed Pettibone]

Note: In 1866, for example, Helenor Alter Davidson was a circuit rider for the Methodist Protestant Church in Jasper County, IN. She later became the first ordained minister of any Methodist denomination.

I guess before 1866 they just hired Anglicans when they couldn't get by on the backs of the laity.

Ed: Thank you Hauro, it should read "She later became the first woman ordained as minister of any Methodist denomination." see http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg13.htm (at 1866)

A few denominations where ahead of the Methodist on this.

Including in 1865 Salvation Army is founded, and has always ordained both men and women. However, there were initially rules that prohibited a woman from marrying a man who had a lower rank.

[Haruo]

And the Montanists... and Anne Hutchinson's group in Rhode Island (depending on what you mean by ordination, or what they meant), ... and the Shakers of Mother Ann... And even in Roman Catholicism, a heck of a lot of women religious have been in pastoral authority (generally over other women), even if they couldn't actually get Jesus into the crackers.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

To be honest, I'm not expecting an huge upswing of female candidate interviews in MO. We only really change when it hurts too much to stay the same. I'm not sure our churches are there yet.

I agree. And since the money is likely to be reimbursed on the back-end rather than a stipend up-front, how many churches that interviewed-but-did-not-hire a female candidate will submit the receipts for reimbursement?

BUT, for the females who in the future get interviews with CBF churches in MO, I suspect they might have worries or suspicions if asked for an interview. This initiative really puts CBF churches in Missouri in an awkward position if they seriously consider a female candidate but have no intention of asking for reimbursement.

[Gene Scarborough]

I think the idea of encouraging CBF churches to consider female clergy is admirable. For years Baptists have ventured into new "mission areas" by putting funds out there to help support something new.

The whole problem revolves around the presuppostion that women are not equal to men when it comes to leading churches as the official Pastor. Meanwhile, were it not for women most churches would get little real ministry and work done. Even old W.A. Criswell with all his bravado about women being submissive hired an entire staff of women (poorly paid) to serve as MInister of Education / Children / etc. We seem to love cheap labor even in the pulpit.

While the UMC has run rings around Baptists in placing women in pulpits, the congregations are not always happy when a woman is assigned as the new pastor. I speak from local experience with the Bath UMC. They just had a marvelous and talented woman, Kelly Sorg, as the last pastor. She stayed one term and is now at a larger church in a bigger town. The new pastor and I had a recent discussion in which he said some he is trying to encourage to come back became inactive in protest of the "lady preacher."

The real problem in all this is our prejudice against women in places of leadership. I had them, myself, until a marvelous woman pastored a small rural Baptist church next door to me. Her gifts and compassion taught me that I was wrong in my own prejudices!!! They were financially helped by the fact her husband had a bigger-paying job and she had a military retirement supplementing her meager wage for serving a small church of older people in a community where children have to leave for lack of work there.

The saddest things I have heard is that now at Ridgecrest the statement that "God doesn't call women" is being put out to the girls---and pretty much enforced under BF&M 2000.

Where are their hearts and minds---when Jesus welcomed women to his band of followers with no dismissive attitude whatsoever????

[Dave Roberts]

One of the real struggles for women in ministry is the fact that so many churches in the rural and small-town South are plateaued or in decline. Part of that is the demographics as young people leave the communities of their nurture for those places offering better job opportunities. Many of the traditional starting places for ministers simply are not there any more because they cannot support a full-time ministry. The UMC has faced this by combining churches into fields (sometimes in almost unmanageable configurations such as having a clergy couple serving 10 churches between them), but they have kept trained ministers in most of these settings. Baptists are faced with many smaller churches that may not exist at all in another generation. As I look at the area where I live, there are at least 8 to 10 Baptist churches that have little prospect for a continued existence beyond 2025. Small town churches that once had associate pastors have been reduced to having only a pastor in many of them. The competition for today's seminary graduates is increasingly difficult, no matter what the theological stripe. To some extent, I see the SBC's resistance to women as a rear-guard protective action to protect these places of service for men when there may be more able women.

I am convinced that to gain a hearing in Baptist circles, women ministers must be both better preachers and more skilled as people persons than men, and I have met several who definitely are. Some of the men in our world need to listen to the messages these women are bringing and ask, "Could they be speaking a clear message from God?" I'm convinced that some of them definitely are.

[Gene Scarborough]

A couple of years ago I viewed a sermon competition between pending graduates from several seminaries---all Baptist. There were more women than men in the competition.

As I listened to some 5 sermons as a sample, the ladies produced far more excellence than the men. They were not as dramatic as the men, but their content was significant / well presented / intellectually far more clear.

This let me know what can happen when we let the ladies lose!

With respect to the UMC, a good retired friend of mine serving as Interim Pastor for one of their rural charges. Check with your local DS and see if there might be a place of need within the UMC if you still want to preach. At the least, you don't have to put up with the constant criticism of the typical Baptist church!