What a bargain!

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Give CBFMO credit for recognizing that the CBF partner seminaries and divinity schools educate and train scads of females for the pastorate, who then have to understand that they have scant chance of landing that position in an actual church. Give them credit for desigining a program that takes a baby step towards remedying that situation. The intensity of objection to it from some surprises me.

Would the objections BDW's ordained female friends be ameliorated by disclosure to the candidate? Would it not be helpful to these women to have expereince with church search committees.

And, BDW, could you elaborate more on what the objections were from your female friends?

Well, I think most of the problems would definitely be ameliorated if the committee disclosed to the candidate that she wasn't really being seriously considered. But, with that disclosure, is the woman really a "candidate." Who would really want to fly somewhere to be interviewed for a position that they weren't seriously being considered for? Maybe some would be interested in going through the process for the sake of gaining experience. Yet, still, if the committee is honest and the woman attends the interview, it's gotta be a warm feeling knowing that you're there, being interviewed, because of your gender and because CBFMO paid the church to fly you out .

[Dave Roberts]

Any men who say they believe in women having the opportunity to pastor who are themselves pastors need to check how often they welcome a woman to their pulpits other than on WMU Focus Week. Only when congregations have a chance to hear female voices sharing the gospel and realize that some of these women are excellent communicators for Christ is there likely to be a change. I do not hold myself as any perfect example, but I had my first ordained woman on a church staff in 1987, have used two women ministers for revivals, and have used others in multi-day events that gave the church a chance to experience them as preachers. Several times, I have used women for pulpit supply. That's where we can really begin to crack some of the barriers.

[Gene Scarborough]

Great idea, Dave!

My good friend at New Bern First, Steve Fitzgerald, is a generous Senior Pastor who gives his 2 associates a chance at the pulpit at least every 2 months. One is a preacher's daughter and ALWAYS brings a thoughtful and well-presented message.

Their service is broadcast out of Channel 12 New Bern and is widely seen in these parts. Somehow, I can't imagine Charles Stanley letting any female associate have the chance!!!!

[Tim Dahl]

I would like to see the CBF incentivise church planting by female planters.

First off, I don't see the point in trying to "convert" churches (whether on the fence, or not currently affiliated) over to the CBF side. Why not start churches that have the CBF deeply ingrained in their DNA? Also, we don't have to fight against the natural tendency of groups to resist change when we start new churches.

Lee, was Garden Oaks pro CBF at some time before going over to SBTC? Was it after a preacher change? Or, was it another church you were in that was pro CBF?

Tim

[Gene Scarborough]

Equally true, Tim!!!

If CBF is to succeed, it will be in the servant mode and a willingness to encourage new church mission starts under the clear CBF banner. Too few pastors dare leave the comfort of a good SBC retirement and the comfort of good money NOT bothering their people about the change in the SBC.

Viewed as a "profession," the role of Pastor can become that of an entertainer looking for the next better-paid gig.

Viewed as assuming a Prophetic role in the life of a church, a Pastor might actually lead people to change their outlook and actually become "followers of Christ" who could care less about worldly reward!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

Great idea, Dave!

My good friend at New Bern First, Steve Fitzgerald, is a generous Senior Pastor who gives his 2 associates a chance at the pulpit at least every 2 months. One is a preacher's daughter and ALWAYS brings a thoughtful and well-presented message.

Their service is broadcast out of Channel 12 New Bern and is widely seen in these parts. Somehow, I can't imagine Charles Stanley letting any female associate have the chance!!!!

Ed: Charles Stanley has female associates? Since When? But Gene on a more serious note what other pastoral duties do the 2 Ladies at New Bern cover?

And Dave over on the 1st page of this thread you wrote: "I don't see a lot of success from the top down approach. My suspicion is that CBFMO may one day regret the approach they have taken. A lot of churches I have dealt with over the years never offered a dime for travel or anything else when I made a trip for an interview. I see this as something bubbling from the bottom up in Baptist life, and happening slowly. Yet, it is happening, no matter what the SBC may say, and some of those involved feel very deeply that it has been a moving of God's Spirit."

I do not see the Missouri proposal as being a top down approach. To me that phrase implies the top level of an organization is exerting pressure on lower levels. Even in ABP's story (which I see as a bit slanted) there is no suggestion of pressure from the top for churches to accept the offer of help to bring in female candidates.

I have an Idea that CBF Mo., may be influenced some what buy their ABC-USA cohorts in their state, who do have successful female pastors as well as males. I would suggest that it may be beneficial for Search committees who have not been exposed to preaching by women to visit one or more of those churches, making clear that they are not there to steal the pastor. On such a visit I would suggest they not only attend the preaching service but attend the S.S. classes and perhaps arrange a conversation with the preacher of the day and a few members to talk about how it is to have a woman as pastor.

Of course It is a bit difficult for me to imagine a CBF Church or even a CBF friendly SBC church where the search committee has not been exposed to Women Preachers at State or National CBF Assemblies.

And speaking of ABC-USA, some of our regions conduct Face to Face events wherein Churches seeking a Pastor and Pastors seeking a Church meet in one place for a day and every Pastor is interviewed by 5 committees and each committee interviews at least 5 Pastors including at least one female.
Trudy and I attended two of these in PA. and She attended one alone in Indiana. That is 15 interviews with no offers but only in two did she feel they where simply fulfilling the obligation. She has said that she learned something from each. 10 of these 5 in Pa and the 5 in Indiana where while she was interim for a year and a half at Latham here in NY, winch was her first pastoral experience. And a few of the committees did hold out a carrot, saying that if some time in the future after she had three or more years in a settled pastorate she should hear they again seeing a pastor, to give them another shot.
And a couple admitted to some trepidation about her SBC background but saw her participation in CBF as a balance to that.

Pastoral candidates attending these events pay their own expediences and the church they represent covers the expenses of the committees.

I want to add that although the Mercer Preaching Consolation last week was great, I was disappointed that Coleen was the only female preacher on the preaching program. A couple young ladies who are students at McAfee did make announcements and introductions. I did talk with one recent Mercer/McAfee female Grad who is an associate pastor at a large old established Georgia church, which is pastored by a classmate of Bruce and I at SBTS in the early 90's . I would guess that the average age of the attendees has dropped 10 to 12 years since we where last there in 2005, even with Milburn Price. Peter Rhey Jones Jr and I, holding up the upper end of the spectrum.

[Sandy]

I would like to see the CBF incentivise church planting by female planters.

First off, I don't see the point in trying to "convert" churches (whether on the fence, or not currently affiliated) over to the CBF side. Why not start churches that have the CBF deeply ingrained in their DNA? Also, we don't have to fight against the natural tendency of groups to resist change when we start new churches.

Lee, was Garden Oaks pro CBF at some time before going over to SBTC? Was it after a preacher change? Or, was it another church you were in that was pro CBF?

Tim

Garden Oaks had a few members who financially supported CBF at the outset, but the church itself never did. I was at another church in Houston, South Main, that was CBF. The previous pastor at Garden Oaks was not interested in denominational politics or alignment, and in fact is now at a non-denominational church plant. The impetus to join the SBTC began more or less on its own, with a group of church leaders, and took root during the interim period. The church had already gone to a 70/30 SBC to BGCT split of its CP giving under the previous pastor in reaction to the cutting of CP giving by the BGCT and the money that continued to go to Baylor. We had an interim agenda committee that worked to help the church transition in the period between pastors, and they more or less made the decision to investigate state convention funding. The BGCT representative who came to speak and answer questions essentially sunk the convention's boat with the church, since the original intent was to dually affiliate.

[Tim Dahl]

The BGCT representative who came to speak and answer questions essentially sunk the convention's boat with the church, since the original intent was to dually affiliate.

The BGCT is ridiculously good at shooting itself in the foot now-a-days. It has gotten so bad that David Montoya even said this:

Have them also talk with a SBT person. Again, the SBT give much better support to smaller churches than the BGCT/TBC. Become dual aligned. In order to keep your split the offering up. Make sure that enough goes to the SBC for you to still be able to participate in insurance and retirement. Then get your missions committee to look at local mission projects that are accountable and needed in your area.

We (wife and I) were members of South Main for about a year while I was an CPE resident at MDACC, so I have a better understanding of your CBF connection. Granted, it was a few years after your experience, but I'm assuming that they were very CBF oriented. They sure were during our tenure there (as members).

This is a sad reason to have a membership somewhere, but I distinctly remember that we decided to join South Main because we could make the Wednesday Night Bible study coming from work. Lorie was coming from the Galleria and I was coming from the Medical Center. We really liked Tallowood, and a couple of other churches, but we just couldn't make it to the Wednesday night Bible Study in time. But, they loved us at South Main anyway.

Tim

[Jerry_B]

I don't and didn't see this idea as a we are going to push women pastors on churches. Hey church if you're willing to consider a woman, we are going to make this sometimes difficult decision/ transition easier for you, we'll cover the costs. If it doesn't work out, that's fine. If you aren't open to women being pastors that's fine too.

I mean really when in the history of the CBF have they told any church what to do? Often to their own detriment they stay clear of such things.

[Tim Dahl]

I don't and didn't see this idea as a we are going to push women pastors on churches. Hey church if you're willing to consider a woman, we are going to make this sometimes difficult decision/ transition easier for you, we'll cover the costs. If it doesn't work out, that's fine. If you aren't open to women being pastors that's fine too.

I mean really when in the history of the CBF have they told any church what to do? Often to their own detriment they stay clear of such things.

I don't see that as the problem, Jerry. I think that those who do see it that way are barking up the wrong tree. I do, however, see where it could be used in a less than transparent manner (by some well meaning folks), that ends up hurting some women just starting out in ministry. If it is used as a meaningful teaching mechanism, where young ladies get some valuable interview experience, but aren't told that "that" is reason for the interview, then we have problems.

However, if churches are open as to the validity of the ladies candidacy, or if it is being used to "help" them in the experience area, then that is better. If it gives some churches, who would like to seriously consider a female candidate, and it allows them to get together, that is great.

Tim

[Big Daddy Weaver]

My understanding is that Christianity Today is writing an article about CBFMO's initiative.

[Haruo]

Please post additional comments to the thread entitled "Money for considering female pastors". I'm closing this thread.