Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

[Joseph Patrick]

From Joseph Patrick...

Word has it that Oklahoma Baptist University has recently sent a tenured professor to a sabatical following his divorce. This person had just been voted as Chair Elect of the faculty council. This follows another forced resignation last year because that professor did not "fit the mold" of Southern Baptist thought. Does anyone else see a similarity?

[Ed Pettibone]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I assume by sabbatical, you mean he got fired, right?

What was the motivation for the firing? Was this a Religion professor?

Coincidentally, the director of my grad program was removed from his position following his divorce this past April. Of course, there's more to that story.

[Sandy]

It's been a while since I was in college, but I know the Baptist school I attended had a clause about divorce in the contract professors signed to teach there. I'd guess OBU probably had that as well.

I don't see how that makes OBU a "clone" of Southwestern. Southwestern is a theological school with a college of Biblical studies which primarily trains students for ministry and missions careers. As teachers, professors are expected to be role models for the students they are training. OBU is a university owned and operated by a state Baptist convention. with similar expectations. That's not "cloning" anything. The scripture teaches that those who are called to serve as teachers are held to a higher standard.

They don't have a "religion" department, or "religion" professors, they have a school of Christian studies and Bible professors.

[Gene Scarborough]

The pattern of control among SBC-liking folks is extending now to Associations and State Conventions. With OBU under Oklahoma control, it would be no surprise to see forced changes.

Some years ago every school and agency in NC made decisions to separate themselves from NCBSC control. Wake Forest University was the first / Retirement homes / other colleges and universities have made their own decisions. Campbell has strong ties with CBF and separated as well.

That seems to be the wise move when a gorilla is standing on the doorsteps.

[Sandy]

I would guess, Gene, from past history and similar circumstances, that most Baptist convention related colleges have had a contract clause regarding professors and divorce since long before there was a CBF, or a conservative resurgence. As I mentioned, the school I attended did, and that was in 1975, in a state far removed from the Baptist Dixie heartland. If there is a "gorilla" standing at the door, it's been there for years.

I don't know what kind of relationship exists between OBU and the Oklahoma Baptist Convention, but if they own the school, support it financially and through being the primary recruiting ground for its students, as many state Baptist convention schools still do, then the trustees elected by the convention represent the will of the school's constituency, and they have the right to make whatever personnel policies they choose.

I also do not see separation of schools from their state convention governance as a good thing, at least, not in terms of the school's ability to continue as a Christian education institution involved in an extension of the discipleship ministries of the churches which once supported them, mainly training ministers and church leaders, which was the original purpose for most of them being founded in the first place. If Wake Forest is an example of what happens when a school deliberately distances itself from a Baptist state convention, then that is not a good thing. It may be good for the school in terms of attracting more students and revenue, if that's the bottom line, but in terms of the school's value to Baptists, obviously not so much. Schools that untie the knot that links them to their roots generally tend to drift, and a lot of formerly Baptist schools have done just that, with Wake Forest as a prime example. The fact that there are still a lot of Baptist kids out there whose families are looking for a solid, Biblically based education is reflected in the growth of undergraduate programs at Southeastern, Southern and Southwestern Seminaries, and at universities like Liberty, along with schools like OBU which have remained connected to their Baptist heritage.

[Gene Scarborough]

I graduated Emory which, like Duke is losely "Methodist." Same with Wake Forest. They are not heathens, but exist as normal instututions of higher education with outstanding recognition in education circles.

Every year there is a red-faced angry preacher complaining about something the Baptist schools do. They contribute little to the budget of each, but think they can control "dancing on campus."

I have never been impressed with the antagonism. A good school teaches students "how to think" and not "what to think." A good religion department challenges and informs students coming with a SS religion. It didn't destroy mine, but was perceived by fundies a doing such. Ignorance fears research and a growing view of the world!

On the same campus in Wake Forest which housed the University, now exists a little LIberty University / Bob Jones / Criswell Bible College. The political scheming and indoctrination is rediculous, in my view!

Since when do supposedly mature men and women need to have their minds controlled????

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Geme S. asked Since when do supposedly mature men and women need to have their minds controlled????

And not that I favor mind control, I must however ask, since when where the typical undergrad college students supposedly mature men and women?

I see the college experience as adjunct to the maturing process.

[Gene Scarborough]

You ONLY reach maturity by taking responsibility for your thoughts and reason for having such, in my view.

A Freshman often comes to college with some idea of what he wants out of the experience and where it might lead to a good job. I thought I wanted to be a MD, but soon learned my forte was not in chemistry---much less organic. I switched majors to Psychology and also found an interest in Southern literature thanks to Dr. Floyd Watkins. I endured other general courses where I had no real interest.

Emory was purposely designed to teach people how to think and evaluate rather than exactly what to think. Professors would challenge you to explain why you chose a position when the subjects required some judgement. 1 in 3 did not make it to graduation. It was tough then and is so now. You are competing on the curve with the top 10% who make it in to begin with.

Maybe I was an exception to the rule, but I considered myself mature enough to separate truth from empty imagined truth. I also learned quickly that what I had previously supposed to be the truth, in some cases, fell into "naive truth" once one had a wider picture of the world and society. For me, Emory was a mind expansion experience and required me to be mature enough to decide what made sense and what should be filed as "interesting-but-not-necessary."

I hasten to say there are some ministers who, in their 50's, believe whatever the last book they read said. They have no personal faith and reasons for such. I pity the congregation trying to sort out what they can't even sort out. Many of them pretend superiority of intellect when they have no real intellect nor discernment!!!!

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

I think that the whole question in the 21st century is going to be broader. It will revolve around the question of the role of the private, denominational college. There was certainly a day when most state conventions felt it was part of their mission to start and fund denominational colleges to train leadership for the churches. Many of those have provided outstanding service for the churches and the denomination. Most have their roots in the period between 1830 and 1920.

The first question is funding. Because of the increasing costs of post-secondary education, the portion of most denominational colleges' budgets provided from the parent denomination has shrunk to less than 5% of the total operating budgets, and in some cases is less than 1% of that budget. Colleges have increasingly turned to other sources of funding and have also questioned the state convention's right to exercise 100% control through the selection of trustees when they provide such a small part of the institution's support.

The second question is that of student populations. The price of many denominational colleges has become such that many of the students from their traditional denominational base can no longer afford to attend the denominational colleges. I am a graduate of one, and I would have loved for our son to attend where we did. With the scholarships and aid offered through a state university and their far lower cost for in-state students, he got his degree from that university for less than 1/4 of what it would have cost him to attend a denominational school. One of the reasons for fewer churches seeking leadership from some of the traditional Baptist schools like Wake Forest and Richmond is that the universities no longer market themselves to the Baptists of their states but rather seek an elite student body from wealthier backgrounds in order to remain afloat financially.

The third question is that of the role that will be accorded graduates in the future. The undermining of confidence in traditional Baptist schools like Baylor was big in many of Judge Pressler's early attacks and was the impetus behind starting undergraduate programs at SBC seminaries (as well as the desire to keep numbers of students up). Will Baptists in the future continue to look to their schools, or have the attacks already eroded confidence in those who come from them?

A fourth factor in higher education is found in the numbers of students who spend their first two years in local community colleges. My wife works in administration for a local community college branch, and their enrollments are up 56% over the last five years. Baptist colleges have traditionally marketed themselves as places to come spend your entire educational experience, but a decreasing percentage of today's students plan to spend four years on the same campus. The future of denominational schools may in part be related to how well they structure programs to receive these students who may have taken four years in a community college setting to complete their first two years of school.

How do others of you see the future of denominationa education?

[Gene Scarborough]

I agree with your analysis, Dave. Most accurate! The cost of any private university / college is high and I am glad I went to Emory on an academic scholarship / student loan / work on weekends and in the summer.

I remember well going to BSU conventions with students coming from all over Georgia. The folks from UGA / Georgia Southern and others (except Georgia Tech) came with tennis rackets and a party spirit. Us Emory folk came with books and assignments for Monday which required reading and writing over that weekend of BSU fun.

You can say what you please, but my Emory education exacted a price and higher level of intelligence to achieve. It was as I said above---not taught what to think, but how to!

Sandy---I totally disagree with your take on conservative schools. I was on the campus of SEBTS and visited classes after the Patterson Presidency became real. They had one professor telling students that using contraception was equal to abortion----and they were naive enough to buy into it. The term "Secular Humanism" was liberally applied to the theories of Freud and anything progressive ad nauseum!

Their BS degree from the SE College and the current Seminiary is true BS! I think the MDiv stands from "Master of Division" in any small church foolish enough to go to them for a student pastor.

If you doubt my word, I can give you the names of several churches who went through hell with blind trust of the old SEBTS-type student pastor. Now they get a Crusader with a new Constitution and By-laws hidden in his suit pocket which can make him into the next Dictator of their church. He tells them what they want to hear and it turns out to be a total lie within a year!!! Too much pain and suffering has resulted in many churches now going to Duke / Campbell / BTSR for the kind of student pastor they used to get out of SEBTS.

Don't try to convince me "the changes are for the better" because it is simply NOT SO!!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed; Gene S. posted "Their BS degree from the SE College and the current Seminiary is true BS! ... " So I have to ask if Gene S. was trained to think so well at Emory why is it that he apparently dosn't know Bull S..t from Horse S..t?"

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

BS coincides with the Batchelor of Science. The is no such clear association with HS!

When you stop being so picky, perhaps you will notice the difference in the smell, but the content is the same!!!!

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

Your view of education is far too restrictive for me---and I feel sorry for you. You probably don't watch any news but FOX and cringe when an underwear commercial comes on.

I think you would fit well the description of a Conservative given by H.L. Menken = "My contemporary ancestors!"

For sure you have not visited nor enrolled in the institutions you castigate. NEVER ONCE did a professor at Emory / SEBTS tell me what to think. I got my "C" on my religious class term paper at Emory because "I didn't consider both sides of whether Jesus was the Suffering Servant depicted in Isaiah. The professor was right in that he noted it was an "A" paper with what I showed about Jesus being the Suffering Servant!

You see, good intellect is capable of considering all sides of a given issue and then explaining logically why I choose the side which makes sense to me!!!!

[Gary]

Unrelated, but Oklahoma Baptist University receives about 5.3% of its budget from the BGCO.

OBU Budget = $47.69 Million
BGCO Allocation = $2,555,520

To be exact that equals: 5.3586%

Trustees all elected by BGCO.

They are Okie Baptists til the end.

Gary

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy and Dave---

When I was interviewed one time for the Staff position of Associate in Youth and Education, a committee members asked me a direct question: "What would you do if a youth or college student asked you why he should believe the Bible when so many say it is just a creation of man to control others?"

First, I told him I would congratulate the student for a deeper level of thinking and question than most people.

Next, I would admit I had to consider such things as I studied and thought from high school through college and then through a MDiv education. Hard times and new information sometimes make for serious questions about a less-considered faith, but mine has survived intact. I believe in God and that Jesus is his Son and our Saviour.

Faith is like when you sit in a chair. You don't take a magnifying glass and examine every joint in the chair. You don't go beneath the house to make sure the floor will support you as well. You sit in faith and trust that the chair will support you since it appears to be built properly and is not sitting crooked.

All the Bible passages in the world will not protect you from sincere doubts, but a faith is not faith without some sincere doubts!!! A faith which cannot stand real doubts thrown at it---is a flemsy chair ready to fall apart in slight breezes!

I feel sorry for the youngster who is not allowed to ask questions and only gets the "shut up and do as I say" response to those which are serious. Baptist babies want to view God as sitting on a rock and dictating the Bible to men who never made a mistake either. It's a total fabrication and guaranteed to leave the new believer in a mess the mind will never be able to sustain.

Don't ever ask me to take out my brain in order to be a Believer!!!!!