SBC Seminary Enrollments

[Bruce Gourley]

I stumbled across a website that provides stats for SBC seminaries for the 2008-2009 school year. Although I assume the numbers remain inflated, they are interesting. These numbers are listed near the bottom of each page linked below.

SWBTS - 2068 full time students

NOBTS - 1517 full-time students

SBTS - 874 full-time students

MWBTS - 468 full time students

No listings for Southeastern or Golden Gate

Compare the above numbers to the 2008-2009 stats reported by the seminaries and discussed by Peter Lumpkin last year

[Ed Pettibone]

I stumbled across a website that provides stats for SBC seminaries for the 2008-2009 school year. Although I assume the numbers remain inflated, they are interesting. These numbers are listed near the bottom of each page linked below.

SWBTS - 2068 full time students

NOBTS - 1517 full-time students

SBTS - 874 full-time students

MWBTS - 468 full time students

No listings for Southeastern or Golden Gate

Compare the above numbers to the 2008-2009 stats reported by the seminaries and discussed by Peter Lumpkin last year

Ed: Bruce, are the figures that you present here for Full time students or for FTE's as used by Peter. ?

[Dave Miller]

I suspect some error in the reporting. Southern has a large enrollment but such a small number of fte. Something's not adding up.

[johnfariss]

Interesting. Also interesting to me is the "FTE" metric. I do not recall that having been used when I was at SEBTS, 1984-87 (it might have been and I was just unaware of it). I do recall though that it, or some acronym like it, was used during Dr. Drummond's tenure there. Whatever numbers they used, between an apparently small number of part time students and the number taking more than the minimum hours required to be considered full-time, it came up with a number larger than actual full time students. At least that is my recollection. Then a couple of years ago, there was some discussion on seminary attendance at one of the more conservative blogs (maybe SBC Voices) and I mentioned this. I thin CB Scott was the author of the blog to which I responded, and he did three things: one, to my perception, he responded angrily to my statement; two, he demanded that I reply with proof; and three, he closed comments so that I could not reply.

John Fariss

[Dave Roberts]

The figures must be for FTE listings.

[Blake]

The numbers for SWBTS and NOBTS look consistent with FTE numbers. SBTS is full time students. The room and board section betrays an accounting error since you can't provide housing for an equivalency only actual students. I'm inclined to think the full time equivalency of those 3000+ students simply hasn't been calculated. Don't know about SEBTS or MBTS.

[Sandy]

I believe the SBC's way of determining the CP allocation to the seminary utilizes the FTE figure, rather than the total enrollment figure. Southern and New Orleans both have much larger total numbers of students than their FTE shows because of their branch campuses, which have large numbers of part-timers. Also, do the numbers for Southwestern, Southern and Southeastern include their undergraduate level programs? I'm not sure they do, since I don't think those are CP funded.

I don't know if anyone has done a lot of research on the bottom line here, of why the enrollments are declining, or whether the seminary administrations even want to know. The SBC schools have been resistant to the kinds of changes that a lot of higher education is taking, such as distance learning and on-line programs, which are offered in abundance. I would guess that a high percentage of prospective SBC seminarians have opted for Liberty online, because of convenience, and because it is competetive, price-wise, since it doesn't require relocation or finding campus housing. For a long time, the Cooperative Program scholarship, provided to each Southern Baptist church member who enrolled at one of the six seminaries, made a gigantic difference in the cost of tuition and fees. Back in '87, when I first enrolled at Southwestern, the matriculation fee was $400, but if you were a member of a BGCT congregation, they paid $150 of that. The whole semester, books included, was less than $600. DTS as I recall was over $4,000 a semester, not including room and board, and the other two schools I looked at, Moody and Trinity Evangelical, were in the DTS ballpark. Comparatively, SBC schools are still a bargain for Southern Baptists, but not compared to the on-line and distance programs. There are also a lot of smaller, regional schools that attract Southern Baptists because they are run by Southern Baptists, though not convention affiliated, and their advantage is location, such as Andersonville, Mid-Continent in Kentucky, Mid-America in Memphis, and some others.

Comparatively though, are the SBC seminaries in as much of an enrollment decline as those affiliated with other denominations? I was at a conference on the campus of Wesley Seminary in DC last spring, and they have gone through a complete re-adjustment of currlculum, course and degree offerings to arrest a decline of almost 60% of their full time enrollment over the course of a decade. And I know that Reformed Seminary here in Pittsburgh has seen similar declines over the last decate. Their response has been to turn more conservative, appealing to a growing number of Reformed PResbyterian churches in this area, making the switch from PCSUA.

[Stephen Fox]

All the seminaries have a problem with page 51 of Diarmaid MacCulloch's magisterial work on Christianity. It continues to be the Elephant in the Room.

[Ed Pettibone]

All the seminaries have a problem with page 51 of Diarmaid MacCulloch's magisterial work on Christianity. It continues to be the Elephant in the Room.

Ed: Does any one here have any Idea as to what Fox is saying. I am not at all embarrassed to say I have never heard of Diarmaid MacCulloch's magisterial work on Christianity. Let alone what may be said on page 1,11,21,31 or 41 let alone p 51.

So now to the question re: FTE's. I received this today from a former participant on these boards, who still lurks occasionally :

Concerning enrollments, two places where data are available:

ATS (see http://www.ats.edu/Pages/default.aspx , then see Member Schools), which reports the most current year, and

IPEDS (see http://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/datacenter/), which reports several years. The IPEDS Data Center is not too difficult to manipulate. Give it ten minutes and bingo, all the data you need from enrollment to faculty salary.

FTE is calculated many ways, depending on the precision and interest of the researcher, but a very common measurement is (but not the most precise, which would count student hours [and still others would also include financial information!], instead, but, nonetheless it is usually very close):

(Fulltime students) + 1/3(Part-time students). Whereas this particular formula is used in undergraduate education, seminary students typically take 12-15 hours, like undergraduate students.

Still, to know exactly what is being reported, one needs to know the parameters of the agency making the data public. The most credible agencies have guidelines that schools must adapt to before submitting their data.

Say hello to Trudy.

I was surprised, I had thought for some time that people just did not know when they used different ways of figuring FTE's. That was because I know three institutions that use the same method and i believed it was the only way. So it seems that if we are comparing FTE's at two institutions we need to bee sure the same formula is being applied to each set of data, other wise the results are meaningless. Unless the researcher has no interest in validity of his or her figures or unless they have their fingers crossed in hopes that no one will notice.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed--- Stephen likes to name drop and give obtuse links to keep one busy playing computer chase. Like you, I wish more often he would just plainly say what's on his mind rather than the minds of 10 "big names."

With respect to Seminary Enrollments---It's all about the money!!!

The subsidies coming from the SBC are based on these figures reported. Who really knows their accuracy nor legality.

I was monitoring SEBTS closely after Randal Lolley was forced to leave. I lived in Rocky Mount, NC, and worked with Ministers Life Insurance so it was a place I called upon every other month on average. Here were my finding and I don't think much is changed:

(1) Numbers reported had nothing to do with seat occupancy. They were claiming record numbers, but I visited every classroom with camera to document their occupancy in the 11:00 Tuesday hour which was the most popular when I was a student 1967-70. I documented an 85% seat VACANCY---were they counting squirrels as 2 students because they have 4 feet on the ground????
(2) I played "fly on the wall" in the library as I read my Atlanta Constitution-Journal and listened to student conversations. In addition I chatted with students casually to find out about their insurance needs and their background---the vast majority were from non-SBC backgrounds / many of Jerry Fallwell--Paige Patterson referral to SEBTS.
(3) I asked at the Registrar's Office is they could give me a figure as to how many students were from SBC churches with the required recommendation form in their personal file folder---OH MY GOD: no one gets access to that nor do we report such!!!

So who is playing with figures for the benefit of PR and financial support from the SBC?

We had about 5% of students in my day paying a higher tuition because their churches were not SBC. Since SEBTS at that time was a solid academic institution focused on Theological Education over Theological Indoctrination, it had been growing in the numbers of students seeing it as a great place for solid education. It boomed during the Lolley years!

In closing I will simply state: "Figures can lie and liars can figure"---massive amounts of it went on at SEBTS from Drummond through Patterson's presidencies. After all, Mrs. Patterson chose to name the President's Home "Magnolia Hill." That happened to be name of the last roadhouse in Wake County!!!! Did the locals ever enjoy the irony.

[Sandy]

Southeastern's peak enrollment of graduate level seminary students occurred in 1999-2000, with a reported total of right at 1,800. However, it is the least "traditional" of the SBC's six, in terms of distance learning, extension courses and on-line coursework, and offers degrees in more areas than the others do. Their current reported enrollment is 2634 which probably includes the bachelor's level college and the extensions and on line students. But that's pretty typical of any kind of higher educational institution today.

There are a lot of factors that affect seminary enrollment. I'm not sure what conclusion Bruce intended to draw by his original post. There has been a decline in SBC seminary enrollments over the course of the last 30 years. However, a lot of factors which once pushed students from SBC churches into the seminaries no longer exist, or have been softened considerably. The mission boards no longer require missionary candidates to have degrees from SBC seminaries. There is still a sizeable financial contribution from the CP, but compared to some other options, particularly extension courses and on-line programs, it doesn't make nearly the difference it once did. There are a lot of smaller schools which are connected with Southern Baptist churches, but perhaps not with state conventions or the SBC, that attract Southern Baptist students because of their proximity.

But it's not just SBC schools looking at enrollment issues. The United Methodists have 13 theological schools scattered around the country. I know of at least one of them that has almost become something other than a seminary, in terms of degree programs, in order to attract students and keep the doors open in the face of a 60% drop in students over the past decade or so.

[Gene Scarborough]

I think we need to consider another factor---with all Seminaries run as a "little Liberty University," many new schools offer a less constricted version of "graduate education" with a far more reputable and honored tradition. Most of the SBC schools have run afowl of the approval of ATS with "administrative activities."

Many SBC church members are now using online stuff out of their personal interest in a more educated faith. However, I would hardly call a "far right-wing" education a fair or wise one. These days, too many non-thinking people are wanting some kind of accolade to their non-thinking faith that might prove them superior to other church members.

One thing is clear to me: SBC Seminaries are a mess and hardly give a balanced view of Christianity anymore.

Are they scared of any serious theological questions without simple answers?????

[Blake]

Not that I doubt you, Gene, but where is it documented that SBC seminaries are having accreditation issues?

[Gene Scarborough]

Over the last several years: SEBTS---upon Lolley's leaving / SWBT---upon the firing of the lady professor.

Just 2 that can be documented!!!!!

[Blake]

Over the last several years: SEBTS---upon Lolley's leaving / SWBT---upon the firing of the lady professor.

Just 2 that can be documented!!!!!

I'm familiar with those events but what do they have to do with ATS accreditation?

[Gene Scarborough]

Both institutions went "on probation" during that period. That clearly meant their graduates "could" graduate from a non-accredited instution.

That, by itself, gave clear possibilities that a graduate would be unable to go to an institution for higher degrees without having proper credentials approved by the ATS.

The ATS is like the IRS looking at a church violating the separation of church and state for its tax-exempt status = it is never done unless the institution / church is "way over the edge" of proper conduct. By hook and crook the institutions managed to keep their accredidation----BUT they were close to losing it!

Serious business and not to be taken lightly. Have I proved my case???

[Blake]

A link to a credible source would greatly help.

[Blake]

According to ATS in Fall 2010 the following numbers were reported for enrollment:

SBTS: 2525 (1365.3 FTE)
SEBTS: 1792 (1373.0 FTE)
SWBTS: 2490 (1442.3 FTE)
MBTS: 751 (367.0 FTE)
NOBTS: 1753 (1158.0 FTE)
GGBTS: 1602 (693.8 FTE)

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed:

by Gene Scarborough » 04 Jun 2011, 07:40
I think we need to consider another factor---with all Seminaries run as a "little Liberty University," many new schools offer a less constricted version of "graduate education" with a far more reputable and honored tradition. Most of the SBC schools have run afowl of the approval of ATS with "administrative activities."

Many SBC church members are now using online stuff out of their personal interest in a more educated faith. However, I would hardly call a "far right-wing" education a fair or wise one. These days, too many non-thinking people are wanting some kind of accolade to their non-thinking faith that might prove them superior to other church members.

One thing is clear to me: SBC Seminaries are a mess and hardly give a balanced view of Christianity anymore.

Are they scared of any serious theological questions without simple answers?????

Blake “Not that I doubt you, Gene, but where is it documented that SBC seminaries are having accreditation issues?”

Gene S “Over the last several years: SEBTS---upon Lolley's leaving / SWBT---upon the firing of the lady professor.

Just 2 that can be documented!!!!!”

Blake “I'm familiar with those events but what do they have to do with ATS accreditation?”

Gene S “Both institutions went "on probation" during that period. That clearly meant their graduates "could" graduate from a non-accredited instution.

That, by itself, gave clear possibilities that a graduate would be unable to go to an institution for higher degrees without having proper credentials approved by the ATS.

The ATS is like the IRS looking at a church violating the separation of church and state for its tax-exempt status = it is never done unless the institution / church is "way over the edge" of proper conduct. By hook and crook the institutions managed to keep their accredidation----BUT they were close to losing it!

Serious business and not to be taken lightly. Have I proved my case??? “

Ed: No Gene you have not proved your case that “all (SBC) Seminaries run as a "little Liberty University," many new schools offer a less constricted version of "graduate education" with a far more reputable and honored tradition. Most of the SBC schools have run afowl of the approval of ATS with "administrative activities." and that “SBC Seminaries are a mess and hardly give a balanced view of Christianity anymore.”


At best you have again offered generalities to specific questions, note this time the questions are asked by Blake, not myself. And in your replies you make some inaccurate statements. To say nothing of irresponsible statements such as when you claim "The ATS is like the IRS looking at a church violating the separation of church and state for its tax-exempt status = it is never done unless the institution / church is "way over the edge" of proper conduct." And " By hook and crook the institutions managed to keep their accredidation----" I view the latter is an insult to ATS.

Be sure to see the enrollment figures from ATS provided by Blake, in the post just above this.

Edited to add this comment. ATS visits (and evaluates) every member school on a pre announced schedule about every four years. They also respond in a timely manner to complaints from Faculty, students and other constituents.

[Ed Pettibone]

According to ATS in Fall 2010 the following numbers were reported for enrollment:

SBTS: 2525 (1365.3 FTE)
SEBTS: 1792 (1373.0 FTE)
SWBTS: 2490 (1442.3 FTE)
MBTS: 751 (367.0 FTE)
NOBTS: 1753 (1158.0 FTE)
GGBTS: 1602 (693.8 FTE)

Ed; So how many actual full Time students do any of the six SBC seminaries actually have? lets add how many part time students does each have? And how many credit hours is the average PT student at each of these institutions pursuing ?

[Sandy]

Both institutions went "on probation" during that period. That clearly meant their graduates "could" graduate from a non-accredited instution.

That, by itself, gave clear possibilities that a graduate would be unable to go to an institution for higher degrees without having proper credentials approved by the ATS.

The ATS is like the IRS looking at a church violating the separation of church and state for its tax-exempt status = it is never done unless the institution / church is "way over the edge" of proper conduct. By hook and crook the institutions managed to keep their accredidation----BUT they were close to losing it!

Serious business and not to be taken lightly. Have I proved my case???

"Probation" by ATS does not affect the accreditation or degrees granted by the institution until a full investigation is conducted and the actual problems are detected. Even then, a period of time is granted for the specific issues to be resolved and the school is re-inspected before the accreditation is pulled. ATS tends to favor the more liberal theological institutions, and so when there is a complaint against a conservative school, they jump in quickly with both feet. My understanding is that they've sent teams to the SBC schools when the moderates whined about them, but they've always been cleared without any conditions being set.

There was no "hook and crook" involved. ATS sent their team to the school, conducted their investigation and didn't find anything to warrant the probational status, or to pull the accreditation.

As to the SBC schools being run like "little Liberty Universities," how would you go about substantiating that claim? Liberty University is a fully accredited, Christian liberal arts university with 15,000 undergraduate students and a lot of degree programs that are highly ranked by the same criteria used to evaluate every other university in America.

If Blake's figures are from ATS, then they only reflect the graduate level students, not the undergrads or the diploma programs. The diploma programs are a hallmark of the SBC schools, opening the door of seminaries to students past 30 years of age who feel called to the ministry but were not able to finish an undergraduate degree. That's a major difference between a seminary, which trains missionaries, pastors and others for professional ministry, and the academic ivory towers of academia, which are not necessarily involved in that.

[Ed Pettibone]

Both institutions went "on probation" during that period. That clearly meant their graduates "could" graduate from a non-accredited instution.

That, by itself, gave clear possibilities that a graduate would be unable to go to an institution for higher degrees without having proper credentials approved by the ATS.

The ATS is like the IRS looking at a church violating the separation of church and state for its tax-exempt status = it is never done unless the institution / church is "way over the edge" of proper conduct. By hook and crook the institutions managed to keep their accredidation----BUT they were close to losing it!

Serious business and not to be taken lightly. Have I proved my case???

"Probation" by ATS does not affect the accreditation or degrees granted by the institution until a full investigation is conducted and the actual problems are detected. Even then, a period of time is granted for the specific issues to be resolved and the school is re-inspected before the accreditation is pulled. ATS tends to favor the more liberal theological institutions, and so when there is a complaint against a conservative school, they jump in quickly with both feet. My understanding is that they've sent teams to the SBC schools when the moderates whined about them, but they've always been cleared without any conditions being set.

There was no "hook and crook" involved. ATS sent their team to the school, conducted their investigation and didn't find anything to warrant the probational status, or to pull the accreditation.

As to the SBC schools being run like "little Liberty Universities," how would you go about substantiating that claim? Liberty University is a fully accredited, Christian liberal arts university with 15,000 undergraduate students and a lot of degree programs that are highly ranked by the same criteria used to evaluate every other university in America.

If Blake's figures are from ATS, then they only reflect the graduate level students, not the undergrads or the diploma programs. The diploma programs are a hallmark of the SBC schools, opening the door of seminaries to students past 30 years of age who feel called to the ministry but were not able to finish an undergraduate degree. That's a major difference between a seminary, which trains missionaries, pastors and others for professional ministry, and the academic ivory towers of academia, which are not necessarily involved in that.

Ed: Ok Gene, now I get to be picky with some one else. Sandy started well with the statements that ""Probation" by ATS does not affect the accreditation or degrees granted by the institution until a full investigation is conducted and the actual problems are detected. Even then, a period of time is granted for the specific issues to be resolved and the school is re-inspected before the accreditation is pulled." But he strayed a bit with the charge that "ATS tends to favor the more liberal theological institutions, and so when there is a complaint against a conservative school, they jump in quickly with both feet." And further lets his prejudices show when he says. " My understanding is that they've sent teams to the SBC schools when the moderates whined about them,.." He is correct about there having been investigations and that those investigations resulted in the Seminaries being "cleared without any conditions being set."

He also does a rather good job of dismantling your claim that the 6 SBC schools are run like Little Liberty Universities. That does not change the fact that many of the leading takeover figures are major supporters of Liberty. I am not sure that the comments on the Seminaries Diploma programs has any real bearing on this discussion.

[Sandy]

Some context.

ATS is an accrediting agency for theological schools. The commissions which grant accreditation and keep the standards updated are composed of administrators and professors from its member schools, many from connectional denominations and those that are more liberal, including far to the left of the SBC schools. Perhaps the nature of the complaint that is filed makes some kind of difference, but it seems that they were very quick to place the SBC schools on probation while the investigation took place. That doesn't appear to be their normal pattern in similar situations at other schools.

"...when the moderates whined about them." So who filed the complaints that led to the investigations in the first place? When moderates lost the trustee positions they thought were their personal entitlements, and changes began to be made in the seminaries which reflected the more conservative direction of the convention, some of those changed prompted complaints. The attention of ATS is not just automatically drawn to a school, someone has to file a complaint. Moderates were being displaced from their prestige and prominence, and they thought ATS would either help them hang on, or drop the accreditation. I have to wonder, though, if anyone would have really cared whether the SBC schools are ATS accredited or not. The bottom line for the overwhelming majority of SBC seminary students is whether or not the seminary can help them with placement in a ministry position when they graduate. There's not one church in 10,000 in the SBC who cares whether their pastoral candidates graduated from ATS accredited schools.

[Gene Scarborough]

In NO WAY has my "little LIberty University" description been disproven!

If you go to SEBTS and its listing of Faculty and their degrees, you will find the vast majority coming from Liberty / Criswell / other well-know Institutions of ultra-conservative higher learning.

Where, during my day and up to the Patterson Administration, the faculty of SEBTS was balanced with Professors coming from all over and all stripes. Now it is a "little Liberty" in its teachings and its credentials for faculty.

I have a clear example with a current Professor teaching his students that even the use of contraciptives and any form of birth control = Abortion! I heard it directly from relatives of one of the young starving students who were daring mother nature to give them more children than they could now afford. They sucked up what the Professor said and followed his position to a "T."

That is a "little Liberty" in my view---Indoctrination over Education! I can't believe any thinking person of a graduate intelligence would suck up to it, but these did!!!

Add to this the number of student pastors who go to small churches who used to trust SEBTS. They go in with a new Constitution and By-laws giving the Pastor total control of the church. Since the change at SEBTS there has been more local church turmoil than I can describe. Now, many of the same churches who got burned go to Duke / Richmond / Campbell for their pastors who are not in the business of creating a "King Pastor." Jerry was a King, as well as most mega church Pastors now running the SBC. In the past SEBTS, taught us to be Servant Pastors trying to meet the needs of whatever church we served. The current picture of local church pastoral work is the church serves the Pastor who tells them what to do.

I rest my case with the SEBTS story I know very personally!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

In NO WAY has my "little LIberty University" description been disproven!

If you go to SEBTS and its listing of Faculty and their degrees, you will find the vast majority coming from Liberty / Criswell / other well-know Institutions of ultra-conservative higher learning.

Where, during my day and up to the Patterson Administration, the faculty of SEBTS was balanced with Professors coming from all over and all stripes. Now it is a "little Liberty" in its teachings and its credentials for faculty.

Ed: Gene where did you find a list of SE Faculty with where they attended college and Seminary. The list i found on the schools web site only listed their names and what they teach.

G: I have a clear example with a current Professor teaching his students that even the use of contraciptives and any form of birth control = Abortion! I heard it directly from relatives of one of the young starving students who were daring mother nature to give them more children than they could now afford. They sucked up what the Professor said and followed his position to a "T."

Ed: Gene I hardly consider a second or third hand verbal account a "clear example".


G: That is a "little Liberty" in my view---Indoctrination over Education! I can't believe any thinking person of a graduate intelligence would suck up to it, but these did!!!

Add to this the number of student pastors who go to small churches who used to trust SEBTS. They go in with a new Constitution and By-laws giving the Pastor total control of the church. Since the change at SEBTS there has been more local church turmoil than I can describe. Now, many of the same churches who got burned go to Duke / Richmond / Campbell for their pastors who are not in the business of creating a "King Pastor." Jerry was a King, as well as most mega church Pastors now running the SBC. In the past SEBTS, taught us to be Servant Pastors trying to meet the needs of whatever church we served. The current picture of local church pastoral work is the church serves the Pastor who tells them what to do.

I rest my case with the SEBTS story I know very personally!!!

Ed: And SEBTS is one of Six SBC Seminaries. I would still like to see that list. I did find the educational back grounds for current Mid Western Proffs. There is one with an undergrad degree from Liberty, a M.Div. From Southwestern and a PH.D. from Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion. In Fact they have two with Ph.D's from HUC-JIR. From personal experience I can assure you that is no fundamentalist leaning institution. It is where Trudy got her second masters. I did not see any from Criswell at any level. By far the majority of degrees held by Mid Western faculty are from Southwestern but also Yale, Princeton, Cambridge and Oxford among others are represented.

ED: Your case still needs some work, Gene.