SBC and Ten Influential Birthers

[Stephen Fox]

FRanklin Graham is spotlighted here, and Nathan Deal, Georgia Governor and member of the Bi-associated FBC Gainesville, Georgia, subject of recent ed.com story on Immigration vote in Georgia.

Has Frank Page spoken to the Birther Movement.

I called Decision Magazine staff of the www.bgea.org Monday morning and had cordial conversation with a staffer there. Invited her to read Steven P. Miller on Billy Graham, and asked her to have leaders in the BGEA consider having Franklin spend a weekend with Mark Noll of Wheaton and Notre Dame, Anne Graham Lotz Bro in law, Denton Lotz of the BWA and maybe Nathan Hatch, president of Wake Forest to help Franklin work through some of his baggage.

Here is the TNR top ten:

http://www.tnr.com/slideshow/politics/8 ... ma-birther

[Stephen Fox]

...In contrast to this turmoil which had enthalled the media, Graham celebrated those Americans who were responding to the tumultuous times (1967) by turning to Christ and, hence, returning to the nation's moral foundations. These persons, whom the evening news ignored, were candidates for what Graham touted as a "quiet revolutiion." He included the same phrase in a nationally syndicated newpaper commentary released that holiday season.
Graham's sermon foreshadowed a major theme in the presidency of Richard Nixon. In a 1968 campaign commercial, Nixon invoked another body of quiet citizens: "the forgotten Americans, the non-shouters, the non demonstrators"--and, once in office, he famously labeled them the "silent majority". Nixon strategically tapped the anxieties of those citizens who had sat out the decade's progressive movements and needed reassurance that their version of America remained viable. In differing yet complementary ways, Graham and Nixon honored sociopolitical communities they had spoken into existence.
The thematic overlap between Graham and Nixon was no coincidence, just as the collaboration between Graham and Nixon was far more than episodic...

[Stephen Fox]

“From Day One, Nixon and I talked about creating a new majority,” Buchanan told me recently, sitting in the library of his Greek-revival house in McLean, Virginia, on a secluded lane bordering the fenced grounds of the Central Intelligence Agency. “What we talked about, basically, was shearing off huge segments of F.D.R.’s New Deal coalition, which L.B.J. had held together: Northern Catholic ethnics and Southern Protestant conservatives—what we called the Daley-Rizzo Democrats in the North and, frankly, the Wallace Democrats in the South.” Buchanan grew up in Washington, D.C., among the first group—men like his father, an accountant and a father of nine, who had supported Roosevelt but also revered Joseph McCarthy. The Southerners were the kind of men whom Nixon whipped into a frenzy one night in the fall of 1966, at the Wade Hampton Hotel, in Columbia, South Carolina. Nixon, who was then a partner in a New York law firm, had travelled there with Buchanan on behalf of Republican congressional candidates. Buchanan recalls that the room was full of sweat, cigar smoke, and rage; the rhetoric, which was about patriotism and law and order, “burned the paint off the walls.” As they left the hotel, Nixon said, “This is the future of this Party, right here in the South.”



Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008 ... z1Kf2KN32m

Franklin Graham, with his flirtations with the TEa PArty and the Birthers seems to have more in common with the folks in 1966 in the Wade Hampton Hotel in Columbia SC than he has with folks like my Grandfather Fox, who was part of the more meritorious aspects of Graham and Nixon's silent majority.

Billy the Father, was too coy by half in regard the SBC controversy, even cagily helped elect Charles Stanley at a pivotal moment. Now tnr.com has ranked Franklin as a top ten Birther.

Can't somebody organize a retreat for Franklin, Noll and Hatch, and Steven P. Miller to explore these foggy areas of Billy's legacy and reconcile some of these matters for the Baptist Covenant MOvement.

http://sites.google.com/site/stevenpmillersite/

[Stephen Fox]

Have engaged the larger discussion at Scott's From Law 2 Grace:

http://fromlaw2grace.com/2011/04/26/oba ... trike-out/

And Joe Crespino for those who seek fuller understanding of David Miller and his world

http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8411.html

[William Thornton]

Nathan "Sweet" Deal, Georgia governor is vastly superior to the guvnr who just exited that office. I didn't vote for Deal because of his unethical deals with the state. The level of dislike, animus, towards Obama is quite high amongst the brethren here....but we get to vote agin' him again next year.

Wm, who didn't want this to be a Fox only thread.

[Stephen Fox]

William: Thanks for helping this not be a Fox Only thread. But you will have to admit it risks being one of the more timely and substantive discussions at this board at some time; especially if you click on the various links I have provided for your edification.
And do click over to FromLaw2 grace. BDW just in the last hour has garnered new info there, spotlighting the faultline between Richard Land and Franklin Graham on this matter, like he did 15 years ago on the Curtis Caine matter.

And again for someone on HWY 29 between Athens and Winder, Joe Crespino in Search of Another country is a must read for you.

Enjoying the exchange and the enlightenment. Thanks for once again helping save my reputation from the pitfalls of cutting edge discourse and exchange

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I gotta give kudos to Dick Land. Here's what he said on the Sunday morning show This Week:

Richard Land, who was also a guest on This Week, said that those who believe Obama is a Muslim are "irrational" and "a little imbalanced." Land said Obama is "a very typical 21st-century mainline Protestant."

"I say the idea that he wasn't born in Hawaii, and the idea that he's a Muslim is just flat nuts," said Land, who is president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.

Christianity Today did an interview with Franklin Graham following his birther comments. The reporter asked Graham to respond to the Land's quote and Graham dodged the birther part of the question.

There's clearly two types of birthers - the Wiley Drake-type who calls the President a "usurper" and the Franklin Graham-type who suggests that the President of the United States has not adequately proven that he was indeed born in Hawaii.

[Stephen Fox]

of the influential SBC Voices blog had this to say in an email to me looped to ten other folks including the leader of the Tea party movement in Ft. Payne Alabama where Bobby Welch was baptized:

Steve, you never fail to disappoint. I happened to look at your article at Baptistlife about Graham (I seldom go there, but checked in today). You continue to show utter contempt for the truth.


Franklin Graham has not stated that he is a birther. He simply said that Obama could solve this if he would just show his birth certificate. His point was not that Obama is not an American by birth, but that the solution to this problem is in Obama's hands.


Your utter disregard for truth and honestly in what you write is troubling, but never surprising.

So looks like BDW sees it little different from David Miller, the inflection of this matter.

I do hope both BDWeaver and David Miller will explore the Steven Miller and Crespino books as maybe this discussion will ramp out and up and shed more light on Charles Pickering of Allied Defense Fund as it has already shown on Richard Land.

[Tom Parker]

Stephen:

The Birthers will never be satisfied. They will end up helping to indirectly re-elect President Obama.

[Sandy]

I gotta give kudos to Dick Land. Here's what he said on the Sunday morning show This Week:

Richard Land, who was also a guest on This Week, said that those who believe Obama is a Muslim are "irrational" and "a little imbalanced." Land said Obama is "a very typical 21st-century mainline Protestant."

"I say the idea that he wasn't born in Hawaii, and the idea that he's a Muslim is just flat nuts," said Land, who is president of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.

Christianity Today did an interview with Franklin Graham following his birther comments. The reporter asked Graham to respond to the Land's quote and Graham dodged the birther part of the question.

There's clearly two types of birthers - the Wiley Drake-type who calls the President a "usurper" and the Franklin Graham-type who suggests that the President of the United States has not adequately proven that he was indeed born in Hawaii.

I think there are some in the GOP, and among some of its constituent groups, who are beginning to realize that this issue might create enough backlash in a close election to put Obama over the top, as Tom suggests. As it is, it smacks of desperation, as they use this as a distraction to try and keep the public's attention off the fact that unemployment is finally dropping off, and the economy is improving. Not by leaps and bounds, for sure, but it's a long time to the next election. Even some hard core conservative economists have had to admit that the stimulus probably saved us from a depression, and probably saved upwards of 4 million jobs. The lies told about health care are being exposed. Apparently Land sees that the GOP's only chance lies in a head to head confrontation over differences in politics and on the issues. If they don't get the tea party in check, they'll lose both the White House and Congress in 2012.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

of the influential SBC Voices blog had this to say in an email to me looped to ten other folks including the leader of the Tea party movement in Ft. Payne Alabama where Bobby Welch was baptized:

Steve, you never fail to disappoint. I happened to look at your article at Baptistlife about Graham (I seldom go there, but checked in today). You continue to show utter contempt for the truth.


Franklin Graham has not stated that he is a birther. He simply said that Obama could solve this if he would just show his birth certificate. His point was not that Obama is not an American by birth, but that the solution to this problem is in Obama's hands.


Your utter disregard for truth and honestly in what you write is troubling, but never surprising.

So looks like BDW sees it little different from David Miller, the inflection of this matter.

I do hope both BDWeaver and David Miller will explore the Steven Miller and Crespino books as maybe this discussion will ramp out and up and shed more light on Charles Pickering of Allied Defense Fund as it has already shown on Richard Land.

Fox, would love to see the e-mail - aaronweaver21 at gmail.com nowadays. I do plan on a blog post on this topic. Just like one does not need to describe himself as a fundamentalist to be a fundamentalist, one does not have to self-describe as a birther in order to be a birther. Like I said, there areat least two types of birthers in my opinion (and the opinion of others). I had questions about Howell Scott at first but his follow-up certainly indicated that he's no birther. Miller has - using a birther tactic here - suggested that Obama is not Hawaii-born. His response was much different than that of Howell Scott.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... irtherism/

For Aaron Weaver especially this link above must be read in context of Steven Miller's work on Billy Graham the Father. Simply must reading for the BDW Pronto.

And following that Joe Crespino soon as you can get your hands on In Search of Another Country.

And maybe BDW you should comment at RD.org

Go back and read my Miller and George Packer quotes at the outset of this thread.

[Tom Parker]

BDW:

You said:"Miller has - using a birther tactic here - suggested that Obama is not Hawaii-born. His response was much different than that of Howell Scott."

Sadly, Dave Miller did use a birther tactic and sounded a lot like a birther.

As I said earlier, nothing will satisfy these folks. President Obama after over 27 months in office still will not be recognized as the legitimate President of the United States by a large majority of Republicans!

[Stephen Fox]

In comment Stream in the Frank Graham Interview:

Gay Lynn Voth

April 26, 2011 6:31pmPresident Obama said the following recently which I think Graham needs to hear: "There’s something about the resurrection of our savior, Jesus Christ, that puts everything else in perspective ... The triumph of Palm Sunday. The humility of Jesus washing the disciples’ feet. His slow march up that hill, and the pain and the scorn and the shame of the cross. And we’re reminded that in that moment, he took on the sins of the world — past, present and future — and he extended to us that unfathomable gift of grace and salvation through his death and resurrection. In the words of the book Isaiah: “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” This magnificent grace ... calls me to pray. It calls me to ask God for forgiveness for the times that I’ve not shown grace to others, those times that I’ve fallen short. It calls me to praise God for the gift of His son and our Saviour."

[HowellS]

I had questions about Howell Scott at first but his follow-up certainly indicated that he's no birther. Miller has - using a birther tactic here - suggested that Obama is not Hawaii-born. His response was much different than that of Howell Scott.

That's a relief! I am no birther and I further think that Trump and others are exploiting this issue in an unseemly fashion. But, then again, why would Donald Trump do anything seemly? While I think that Obama, and more particularly, Jay Carney, his Press Secretary, struck out on several Easter-related issues, I find it disconcerting that so many so-called conservative Evangelicals are even flirting with Donald Trump. Is Mike Huckabee too solid of a Christian to support? Do Evangelicals have to resort to the Donald as their savior in waiting? (http://fromlaw2grace.com/2011/04/12/don ... ng-savior/) This is preposterous.

As Aaron correctly noted from my response to him on my blog, I am not a birther. However, there are political questions that can be asked regarding the President's failure to release any of his records, including college and law school. As one who went to law school with guys like Obama, I saw first hand how some folks operated. There may be legitimate reasons why he will not authorize the release of his college and law school records, but this only adds fuel to the fire. And, while I do not think that the President is a Muslim, I do believe that he and his administration have said and done things policy-wise that do not cast his Christianity in the best possible light. Again, this is more of a political observation than a religious one, but the two often-times intersect. That's why I think it was a mistake for Jay Carney to respond to the Easter proclamation flap and the Graham comments in the way that he did. Could have been handled better and this would have been a non-story and I wouldn't have had anything to write about today

[Dr. James Willingham]

This whole discussion looks like an exercise in futility. First, there is Steve who is sure he has the conservatives over a barrel. How could they make an issue out of Obama's birth? Second there are conservatives who are equally sure Steve has taken leave of his senses. After all, all they are asking is for a plain and factual presentation of the materials involved (namely, pony up the birth certificate). To the detached observer, it is a case of thesis and antithesis, the skilled use of the dialectic for manipulation, to move the public to a position of chaos so some hidden goal can be accmplished. Very few people are aware that there are those behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz who is manipulating things for his own purposes. It is what is behind the scenes that I find most puzzling. FDR once said nothing happens on the public scene by accident. In other words, it was planned. Sort of reminds me of my sharecropper grandfather with a third grade education who warned his neighbor about joining the army. The neighbor said, "I'm going to join, get my training, and I won't have to go over seas." Grandpa said, "Within a (certain amount of time), you will be oversears in a World War." After the war, the neighbor came home, and said to Grandpa, "Well, you were right. I wound up in a World War. The only thing you were wrong about was how soon I'd be there." I can't remember whether it was 6 mos. or a year, but Grandpa said it was one and it was the other. The main thing was the war, and he was right on the money. Was it a lucky guess? Naw! Grandpa had a brother who had some knowledge of what was going on in the world. The whole family use to have terrile arguments about the whole mess. When you have some idea of who decides what is going down and when and where, then you have a jump on being prepared for what happens. There are folks on the side line waiting to redo this nation into their own image, and there are those who are waiting to capitalize on the dumb conservative/moderate donnybrook of the SBC. O by the way, it might be the same folks who brought us two world wars, the great depression, and the present economic situtaion which will improve for the election. After that we can kiss our free nation good by...Some of Steve's references could help us to know who, if they would. Some of the conservatives could from their side. Suckers are born every moment. Our Lord said the children of this world are wiser than the children of light. Too bad you folks never read Carroll Quigley's Tragedy and Hope or his The Anglo-American Establishment.

[Gene Scarborough]

What is the problem with Republican Conservatives just saying, "We have a new President from the other party. We have greater problems with an overseas war and busted economy----we must now cooperate to solve."

I can't remember a time of more bull-headedness and talking past one another in my 65 years of life. It is all getting us NOWHERE!

I griped non-stop about the Florida results which elected George Bush over Al Gore. Gore was a more astute Southern gentleman and person of faith to simply say, "The Court has decided and the matter is ended. I concede the election."

He knew the self-destruction of non-stop bickering was more a distraction than it needed to be for the good of the country. In the same way, folks who started CBF admitted there was no future nor positive result after some 10 years of warfare. Strangely, that "silent majority" of citizens and non-Christians had seen long befor---that bullies were fighting on the playground, and wise children move to the other side so the fight does not get them accidentally punched or have a rock part their hair when it missed the enemy.

Will we ever have enough sense to stop unproductive fighting among ourelves and solve the elephant poop building up in the room when no one noticed the elephant of un-winable war / high energy prices / failed economy / a growing deficite / taxpayer money wasted on things like the failed attempt to impeach Bill Clinton along with the noises to impeach Obama.

It's ugly. It's mean. It's non-productive. It's a total distraction from the real issues and attitudes needed to SOLVE PROBLEMS!

[Sandy]

Sometimes I have a little trouble following Fox's connections between people and resources, and following where the SBC fits into all this.

A lot of this stuff is just right wing media frothing because they think the mainstream media mistreated poor George. The problem with payback is that what happens next has to be more spectacular and bizzare in order to attract an equal amount of attention. As a former long time Social Studies/Government/Economics teacher, I attribute most of these kinds of things to the blatant ignorance that occurs as a result of an educational system that allows students to graduate illiterate.

The safeguard to prevent a person whose birth circumstances don't meet constitutional muster comes into play long before a candidate can be nominated by their party and placed on the ballot in each of the 50 states. The state of Hawaii, where Obama was obviously born, provides certified copies of birth certificates to anyone who needs one, and that is all that is necessary, in this case, to prove one's place of birth. The supposition that most birthers are resting on is that the certified copies are fraudulent, that there was some sort of conspiracy to cook up fake documents and fake originals of his birth announcement in the newspaper, as well as bribery of a whole host of hospital personnel. Unless there's evidence that such faking occurred, and it is proven in a court of law, Obama's passport and driver's license suffices to meet the constitutional requirement. Of course, dumba***s like Trump and Wiley Drake are too stupid and ignorant to know their constitution or the law.

The idea that producing the "original" birth certificate will solve this issue, and that Obama is taking steps to avoid doing so is absurd. The Republican state official in Hawaii who is responsible for such records has testified to the original's existence, as well as to its location. But the constitution doesn't require producing an original birth certificate, namely because for those of us born before the computer age, such records are almost impossible to find. Once recorded, your original goes into a file, and then probably winds up in a storage box in the basement of some government building, there to molder until who knows when. What you get, when you request one, is a certified copy. John McCain couldn't produce an original birth certificate, and he was born in Panama. How is it that he could run?

Now, Fox, if you care to elaborate on what all of this has to do with the SBC, I'll read it.

[Gene Scarborough]

Er----Sandy:

He is the duely elected President. The campaign ended 2+ years ago.

Simply get over it!!!

Now what do you have to say about us solving problems over turning little ones into distracting BIG ONES???

[Sandy]

Er----Sandy:

He is the duely elected President. The campaign ended 2+ years ago.

Simply get over it!!!

Now what do you have to say about us solving problems over turning little ones into distracting BIG ONES???

I think that there is this fascination and obsession with Obama's birth certificate because the Republicans are clueless when it comes to real political solutions to resolve our current problems, namely stupid military blunders made during the previous administration, the economy, and the fact that we have the most cockeyed, inefficient system for delivering and paying for health care in the world. They are the cause of most of the problems, they have no solutions that will work, and most of them have been sold to the highest corporate bidder. If they don't come up with distractions, they are going to lose the White House in 2012 and the Democrats will regain control of the house.

[William Thornton]

Sometimes I have a little trouble following Fox's connections between people and resources, and following where the SBC fits into all this.

A lot of this stuff is just right wing media frothing because they think the mainstream media mistreated poor George. The problem with payback is that what happens next has to be more spectacular and bizzare in order to attract an equal amount of attention. As a former long time Social Studies/Government/Economics teacher, I attribute most of these kinds of things to the blatant ignorance that occurs as a result of an educational system that allows students to graduate illiterate.

The safeguard to prevent a person whose birth circumstances don't meet constitutional muster comes into play long before a candidate can be nominated by their party and placed on the ballot in each of the 50 states. The state of Hawaii, where Obama was obviously born, provides certified copies of birth certificates to anyone who needs one, and that is all that is necessary, in this case, to prove one's place of birth. The supposition that most birthers are resting on is that the certified copies are fraudulent, that there was some sort of conspiracy to cook up fake documents and fake originals of his birth announcement in the newspaper, as well as bribery of a whole host of hospital personnel. Unless there's evidence that such faking occurred, and it is proven in a court of law, Obama's passport and driver's license suffices to meet the constitutional requirement. Of course, dumba***s like Trump and Wiley Drake are too stupid and ignorant to know their constitution or the law.

The idea that producing the "original" birth certificate will solve this issue, and that Obama is taking steps to avoid doing so is absurd. The Republican state official in Hawaii who is responsible for such records has testified to the original's existence, as well as to its location. But the constitution doesn't require producing an original birth certificate, namely because for those of us born before the computer age, such records are almost impossible to find. Once recorded, your original goes into a file, and then probably winds up in a storage box in the basement of some government building, there to molder until who knows when. What you get, when you request one, is a certified copy. John McCain couldn't produce an original birth certificate, and he was born in Panama. How is it that he could run?

Now, Fox, if you care to elaborate on what all of this has to do with the SBC, I'll read it.

Guess you know the news on this, Sandy. Obama should have done this two years ago. I think you would be surprised at how diligently and efficiently gummit preserves those original documents.

[Neil Heath]

Perhaps, as someone said above, nothing happens in public that wasn't planned. If so, did Obama delay in producing the documentation until he could discredit certain people as fully as possible? And if so, it was a smart move, and I'm pleased that he did it.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

He did produce legal documentation two years ago.

That document he produced in 2008 - Certificate of Live Birth - was the same document one of my classmate's had to produce to renew his passport last year.

I guess the question is: why wasn't that form of legal documentation sufficient proof that Obama is who he says he is? The multiple birth announcements weren't good enough either. Why was Obama held to a different standard than the men before him who ran for President?

Why didn't he do this two years ago? I guess he and his advisers didn't feel it was necessary for the President of the United States to respond to the demands of nuts and flakes hell-bent on popularizing yet another conspiracy theory. Richard Land described the birthers and Obama-is-a-Muslim crowd as both "irrational" and "imbalanced." You'd think that the President wouldn't have to respond to demands from those types of people, the irrational and imbalanced.

[Tom Parker]

William Thorton:

You said:"Obama should have done this two years ago."

Why?

[William Thornton]

Because there's nothing in it. Why make an issue of it by letting the lunatic fringe latch onto it?

But then, I suppose there's an argument that there will be no end to the thing.

Trump Circus