Addressing the future of BTSR--Good Moves!

[Gene Scarborough]

BTSR has been looking at options to continue a balanced and worthy education for CBF clergy:

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6248/53/

In the article he says:

Crawford said he envisions eventual relocation from the campus adjacent to Presbyterian-affiliated Union Theological Seminary in buildings that once housed Union's Presbyterian School of Christian Education to a new BTSR building with 39,000 square feet of space. The seminary would use 21,000 square feet, and the rest would be leased to partner organizations. That would allow all organizations to reduce operating costs by combining functions like information technology and for BTSR to collect a modest rent.

Crawford says the seminary currently has too much unused space. To fulfill its essential mission, he said the school needs only about 25 percent of the present facilities. One reason the seminary chose its present location, he said, was proximity to a major theological library. A number of those libraries becoming digitized and available online in the next five or six years now gives the school more flexibility in sharing building space with a broader range of partner organizations, he said.

Crawford said the seminary would continue to pursue a "strategic relationship" with a university, possibly hosting a graduate program or interdisciplinary studies mingling theology with other areas of study. Trustees of Chowan University in North Carolina recently voted to discontinue talk of a possible merger with BTSR, citing concerns including $7 million the seminary owes in debt.

[Gene Scarborough]

I see this as some good creative thinking for several reasons:

1) It is totally honest about how money is being spent so much for a building not used efficiently.
2) It is designed to keep the worthy education and faculty without impairing students in any way.
3) It is a wiser use of dwindling funds in a bad economy recovering very slowly, if ever.

The demise of SEBTS into an extension of Jerry Fallwell's Liberty and Pat Robertson's Heritage has been a heart-breaker for all of us who knew SEBTS in its great days of education. Under Randall Lolley's leadership, I think it grew to its greatest height of solid theological education. The best thing was it had added the dimension of practicality to the over-blown academics of my day in 1967-70.

Now let's take a quick look back to the demise of SEBTS when Conservative Resurgence forced the termination of Lolley and many of the faculty. Alumni protested the moves. Students protested it as well. The will and power of CR was more than we could offset. It was as if the Barbarians had sacked Alexandria and Rome destroying all the glory of the libraries and intelligensia. Today, Rome is gone except for the ruins which draw visitors. In the same way, the Mega Church is starting to slide. It could well be that the entertainment at the Coliseum is a costly endeavor possible only if Rome subsidizes the tickets for poor people being distracted for the real needs of any successful culture.

After this rediculous American Conservatism which has bankrupted the budget and embroiled us in foreign warefare we can't afford, we could well be another lost civilization. Within such still breathes the ideals of the Founding Fathers known to those of us who know our country by personal experience. What is most important is the DREAM! It is never lost as long as us dreamers exist and don't quit advocating for it.

[Gene Scarborough]

(cont.)

I visited the SEBTS campus when the interim Presidency of Drummond was over and the new Patterson era was bragging about tremendous growth in students under the forced changes. I took my camera to document classroom usage at the most popular hour--11:00 Tuesday. The reality I found and documented was 85% of classrooms unused!!! The parking lots were half full. It was a total fantesy they were promoting to Alumni! Their numbers of student had to come from counting cats and dogs walking across the campus as 2 students since 4 feet were on the ground!

The difference was that churches still gave as if nothing had happened. All our protesting did not shake the popular status quo.

The financial woes of CBF are a result of the failed economy which is a result of greed and bad government. The SBC is similarly strapped, but the faithful and sacrificial giving of those who left gave them tremendous reserves so they can pretend they are not in trouble. Just as the pretension at SEBTS covered their weak status, so does it cover the lack of ability of the SBC to do other than hang on with no advances.

Here is my constructive suggestion for the future of BTSR: Those who can no longer support the kind of education provided by all the SBC Seminaries need to consider our former sacrificial kind of giving to CBF. Too many are just hanging on in the local church when sacrifice is needed. If we are building no more than a Coliseum to entertain, then we are doomed to ultimate failure. The followers of Christ were the "real believers." The multitudes had fled for safety, but the daring were still meeting in hidden places. Even when Constantine declared Rome Christian there was a need, much greater, to let people know what "Real Followers of Christ" were by those who believed in integrity and sacrifice.

You will never crush a dream unless we crave comfort more than dreaming and acting in real ways---both in religion and politics.

[Dave Roberts]

I step into this thread with a certain level of trepidation because of my involvement with BTSR. When my own seminary became a place for Mohlerites, I found a spiritual and educational home at BTSR. I have been on the campus a number of times and found it a place of spiritual nurture and help for my journey. Our son will finish him MDiv there in May and has lived for the last three years on the campus. It is a unique and special place in Baptist life as the only free-standing seminary among moderate Baptists. It was a godsend when BTSR was able to purchase unused buildings from the Presbyterian School of Christian Education and turn them into a useful campus.

At the same time, I recognize part of the problems with the current location. It was all built in the 1940's or 1950's (at least by the appearance of the buildings and their style). Some of the buildings have large windows and high ceilings that are almost impossible to heat. The apartments where my son lives on the campus are small but quite functional, and the dorm rooms in Graves are adequate but hardly modern. Virginia Hall, in the middle of BTSR's campus, is perhaps the most difficult building to fully utilize. One end is the seminary chapel, but the large old dining area is often unused. Upstairs areas (where CBFVA has its offices along some staff offices) is cut off from the rest of the campus life. Graves Hall has served well as a classroom building, but it has spaces that are difficult to connect and use. In order to be handicapped accessible on the main floor, two lift platforms are necessary because of different floor levels on opposite sides of its foyers.

I grieve to see the campus consider a move from this sacred space, but it is not a place that can be easily reshaped for the electronic classrooms of the 21st century. (My wife works in the VA community college system, so I have seen glimpses of what lies ahead in terms of smartboard technology, instructional integration of electronic media, and the necessities for high speed digital exchanges of information.) The current campus, with all buildings in a straight line, does not lend itself well to the kind of networking future campuses involve.

Also, a Richmond area community college is now leasing space from Union Presbyterian Seminary adjacent to BTSR, utilizing their former dining facilities for a culinary arts school. I suspect that some kind of deal might be possible to purchase the entire area there to include the BTSR buildings that might be advantageous to everyone. Also, a luxury condo development has just gone into the old Richmond hospital behind the campus. BTSR's land is probably also desired by those who have developed that complex as well. It may actually make the best business sense.

If you read the history of SBTS, one of the most wrenching moments in its history came when it chose to move from downtown Louisville to the remote hinterlands of Lexington Road in the 1920's. My prayer for my new spiritual home is that this move will be equally as advantageous.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Dave when you write "If you read the history of SBTS, one of the most wrenching moments in its history came when it chose to move from downtown Louisville to the remote hinterlands of Lexington Road in the 1920's. My prayer for my new spiritual home is that this move will be equally as advantageous."

I join you in the prayer that the proposed move for the Richmond Seminary be equally advantageous for them as was the Move of SBTS from Down Town Louisville and specifically the Rockefeller Building out to the "Beeches". And even as much as SBTS first Major move from Greenville to Louisville.

I have mixed emotions about Richmond or more specifically about a few of their grads who made a quick move from SBTS to Richmond . On the other hand,
I feel very privileged to have taken classes with and having had membership in Louisville churches with some of the former SBTS professors who also made the same move. I was a bit surprised to see your reference to the present campus of Richmond Seminary as sacred Space.

I am excited with some of the new courses that are being suggested at Richmond, especially short term opportunities for lay persons.

[Dave Roberts]

I was a bit surprised to see your reference to the present campus of Richmond Seminary as sacred Space.

.

In the experience of a Wellness Retreat with MTM, we met several times both on their campus and on the Union campus across the street. It was a place, at that time, of healing and help for me. Places where we meet God always have a way of achieving sacred status.

[Gene Scarborough]

As people we tend to love the sense of security a proper campus brings. Like the great Cathedrals of England and Europe we build "to the glory of God" while the reality is that most buildings are for the comfort of man. A Corporate name on a big downtown building is a kind of Idol saying, "We have succeeded!" In tough times everything must have more utility than vanity attached to it.

It sounds like the motive for change is just that. Why worship a building or campus you can't afford to perpetuate?

Our CBF dream is like the Jewish Diaspora. They were conquered and scattered, but did not forget the promises of Scripture and the ideal Kingdom of David. As Jesus came into the picture he was expected to bring back the Kingdom of David. Instead, he brought in a new vision of a wider Kingdom of God---lost in the attempt to put on a big show with much inner corruption.

As long as we understand and follow the ways of Christ, we will be blessed spiritually. If we are bent on having big churches and big buildings to feel big and safe, we have, once again, allowed Satan to deceive us into worldliness and just being another part of "acceptable society."

I think this move by BTSR involves forsaking big spending on buildings and institutions and a return to spiritual preparation of their graduates to be leven in a society misguided with our macho American image. If anyone can show me how Jesus made such a difference by restoring the Temple, I would applaude the approach. Instead, he preached on a hill beside the Sea of Galilee---no video screens / no PA booming / no celebrity testimony / just the voice of one crying in the Wilderness about loving and ministering to the outcasts of his day. He had a dream which lives on 2,000+ years later.

It is the dream and not the buildings which last into eternity!!!

[Dave Roberts]

BTSR may be facing squarely what many churches refuse to face. People are not drawn by columned buildings that were such a rage 50-75 years ago. Many of the churches I know are facing the fact that their aging buildings are both unattractive to the modern eye and are a nightmare of delayed maintenance that has been off by the last two generations. When you evaluate buildings, not through the eyes of a lifetime of having worshipped there but through the eyes that question their attractiveness and usefulness, most church buildings fail miserably. I recently was in a church whose heating plant burns 8 gallons of fuel oil per hour. The building was not insulated, and its aging windows leak air miserably. An architect told another church that the only value their 1950's educational building has is if you gut it to the outside walls and start over. Every room in is has pine paneling that is no longer attractive, and there is no wiring for modern usage with some rooms not even having an electrical outlet.

Modern worship centers do not require the massive investment of stained glass windows and pipe organs. They can well be built in much more utilitarian ways and enhanced with theatrical lighting and modern sound systems. Rounded seating gives a much greater sense of community than can be created with straight pews. A-frame buildings are ridiculously expensive to heat with 30-40 foot apexes to their roof. Consideration for the future not only is coming at BTSR; it will be arriving for lots of churches who will have to choose ministry or maintenance. My fear is that our "edifice complex" will keep us bound to buildings that keep the church from its mission.

[Gene Scarborough]

These hard decisions remind me of what was happening in Jesus' day. To be the Messiah, he was expected to restore the Davidic Kingdom. When he didn't advocate political power and the Temple run by the Pharisees for large financial gain, they killed him!

How is it that we rejoice in his ressurection and worship him still? He had no great building with video screens and a PA system to shake your nerves. He had no great multi-media presentation of his birth with glittering costumes. All he had was a crowd on a hillside beside the Sea of Gallilee who forgot to bring their lunch---or did they respond to the little boy's sacrifice of his loaves and fishes and suddenly start pulling their own food from beneath their robes and sharing with one another???

Some years ago Joseph Baley penned a Parable, later turned into a movie, titled "The Gospel Blimp." In it was a story of a couple who wanted to win a neighbor to Christ. They met with a few other Christian couples and hatched the idea of a blimp which would fly over the city. They hired a pilot and dressed him in a fine costume. They wrapped candy in gospel tracts he could drop and equipped the blimp with loud speakers to play Christian music and sermons. One of their many disasters was when the blimp got ripped by a church steeple and collapsed over the surrounding houses. Most of all they pissed off the people all over the city with their obnoxious ways.

The story ends with the couple having won their neighbors to Christ. The group asked with excitement what did it---the tracts / loud speakers / admiral or what. Their answer was simple: "We invited them to supper one night. They became friends. They became Christians because we visited with them!"

[Dave Roberts]

I have a DVD of that movie--dated, but still a valid message.

[Gene Scarborough]

Lest anyone think BTSR is the only one having problems:

New Orleans Seminary to cut personnel

Posted on Apr 1, 2011 | by Staff
NEW ORLEANS (BP)--New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary has announced that in light of the economic recession and a reduction in Cooperative Program funding, the seminary will lay off three professors, ask four professors to shift to part-time status, and eliminate six ministry-based faculty positions, effective Aug. 1.

New Orleans Seminary President Chuck Kelley made the public announcement in a statement to Baptist Press late Friday, after telling seminary staff and faculty. Earlier, he met personally with the individuals affected by the cuts. The changes will be presented to the seminary trustees at their April 12-13 meeting as a part of the proposed budget for next year.

So let's quit worrying so much about CBF and recognize this is a situation of the economy and not theology!

[Dave Roberts]

And that is Paige Patterson's brother-in-law. I expect more will be coming in other places.

[Dave Roberts]

One interesting piece is that 5 donors have pledged to match donations up to $1-million for BTSR's future relocation. So much for the lack of donors and the predicted death of BTSR.

[Gene Scarborough]

When the going gets tough---the tough get going!!![/b]

[Dave Roberts]

It's time for a BL challenge. Those of us who believe in what BTSR is doing could all send a donation that will be doubled by their generous donors. I'm sending one. The address is:

Matching Fund
BTSR
3400 Brook Road
Richmond, VA 23227

[Ed Pettibone]

It's time for a BL challenge. Those of us who believe in what BTSR is doing could all send a donation that will be doubled by their generous donors. I'm sending one. The address is:

Matching Fund
BTSR
3400 Brook Road
Richmond, VA 23227

Ed: Sorry Dave even though we have friends at Richmond and I am glad the school partners with CBF, our special offering for a seminary go to Central where Molly Marshal is president and is supported by both ABC & CBF. We also Contribute to Bacone College where Flick is a trustee.

[Gene Scarborough]

That's OK, Ed---we all just need to put our money where our mouth is!!!!

[Haruo]

It's time for a BL challenge. Those of us who believe in what BTSR is doing could all send a donation that will be doubled by their generous donors. I'm sending one. The address is:

Matching Fund
BTSR
3400 Brook Road
Richmond, VA 23227

I think I'll send them a little something in gratitude for their housing of the Hymn Society offices...

[Dave Roberts]

It's time for a BL challenge. Those of us who believe in what BTSR is doing could all send a donation that will be doubled by their generous donors. I'm sending one. The address is:

Matching Fund
BTSR
3400 Brook Road
Richmond, VA 23227

I think I'll send them a little something in gratitude for their housing of the Hymn Society offices...

Thank you, and Dr. Loftis will appreciate your concern for the Hymn Society.

[Chris]

Modern worship centers do not require the massive investment of stained glass windows and pipe organs. They can well be built in much more utilitarian ways and enhanced with theatrical lighting and modern sound systems. Rounded seating gives a much greater sense of community than can be created with straight pews.

Though I don't think stained glass windows and pipe organs are requirements, I think they both add positive aesthetics to the building and the worship experience. Why is "theatrical lighting" an enhancement? What good is it? On modern sound systems, how many microphones does a typical church need? For as church with two or three staff members on stage, I'd say 4 would be adequate. Personally, I have never found a greater "sense of community" in a church with "rounded seating". With "rounded seating" the speaker usually has a portion of the audience facing his back! IMHO.

[Ed Pettibone]

Modern worship centers do not require the massive investment of stained glass windows and pipe organs. They can well be built in much more utilitarian ways and enhanced with theatrical lighting and modern sound systems. Rounded seating gives a much greater sense of community than can be created with straight pews.

Though I don't think stained glass windows and pipe organs are requirements, I think they both add positive aesthetics to the building and the worship experience. Why is "theatrical lighting" an enhancement? What good is it? On modern sound systems, how many microphones does a typical church need? For as church with two or three staff members on stage, I'd say 4 would be adequate. Personally, I have never found a greater "sense of community" in a church with "rounded seating". With "rounded seating" the speaker usually has a portion of the audience facing his back! IMHO.

Ed: Chris, I am with you on stained glass and pipe organs. Theatrical lighting used properly can be an enhancement but few churches have really good lighting technicians, the same can be said for sound equipment. And note Dave said as you quoted "rounded seating", not seating in the round.
I have however visited an Assemblies of God Church where the auditorium seats are in a circle and the pulpit platform & pulpit are in the center and rotate slowly (almost imperceptibly) 360 degrees during the service. I only visited on a tour so I am not sure what I would think of it for worship. TIm Bonney may know of the Church which is in Columbus Indiana not real far from from his last Hoosier pastorate.

[Gene Scarborough]

I think we usually walk a line between worship and entertainment.

Jesus found this at the Temple where visitors had to use the moneychangers to have "temple money" and the descriptions of incense / trumpets / other things to raise goosebumps kept people from noticing how they were being used to keep the Pharisees in high style.

I see this in many mega churches today. I visited FBC Orlando as a classic example: rounded building / no windows / complete control of sound and lighting / monster big. It was a weekday so I was able to see the construction and other support systems without people present. To me it was nothing different than any theater I might attend.

The difference is how the facility is used and what kind of Christian fellowship and ministry take place when people are there. My personal experience is "the bigger the church / the more you have to organize for ministry." Smaller churches seem to know one another / be there when people are hurting / pass the word to friends and neighbors rather than rely on billboards and TV to get people to come.

Think what a multi-million dollare facility costs as is sits mostly empty and devoid of activity during the week.

Would such big money be better spent on ministry in hard economic times?????
Is it an ego thing to be the "biggest church in town???"

[Ed Pettibone]

I think we usually walk a line between worship and entertainment.

Jesus found this at the Temple where visitors had to use the moneychangers to have "temple money" and the descriptions of incense / trumpets / other things to raise goosebumps kept people from noticing how they were being used to keep the Pharisees in high style.

I see this in many mega churches today. I visited FBC Orlando as a classic example: rounded building / no windows / complete control of sound and lighting / monster big. It was a weekday so I was able to see the construction and other support systems without people present. To me it was nothing different than any theater I might attend.

The difference is how the facility is used and what kind of Christian fellowship and ministry take place when people are there. My personal experience is "the bigger the church / the more you have to organize for ministry." Smaller churches seem to know one another / be there when people are hurting / pass the word to friends and neighbors rather than rely on billboards and TV to get people to come.

Think what a multi-million dollare facility costs as is sits mostly empty and devoid of activity during the week.

Would such big money be better spent on ministry in hard economic times?????

Is it an ego thing to be the "biggest church in town???"

Ed: Gene again you use that editorial "we" much to liberally You may walk a line between worship and entertainment but I have attended scores of Baptist Churches, ABC and SBC, and since we are on the CBF board here at BL.C, a couple dozen CBF churches that do a very good job of creating a worship experience.

What did Jesus find at the Temple? Entertainment? You jest. Yes he did find and condemn unscrupulous money changers. But he did not condemn the idea of "Temple Money" In reality, Temple coinage. And what about the description of of incense or trumpets ? Are you advocating that Baptist should eschew musical instruments ? What is any empty sanctuary but a theater. There are theaters of various types. Have you ever been in a surgical theater? Or an autopsy theater. Did you never as a pastor promote a a Spiritual Concert? I am not sure what you real problem is with the Megas but I am sure God can handle them better than you can. I will not argue the value of small church vs Mega neither is my ideal.

I have not been in FBC Orlando since they moved to their "new" campus but their old buildings down town also comprised a mega complex. The only time I was there was for a Wednesday evening dinner with a few hundred people. Normally they would have had a multiple of meetings on that evening, teacher training , choir practice Divorce recovery etc, but it so happened they where in their first week of the annual Christmas pageant and some one came up with a ticket for me. It was absolutely as the fine as any worship service I have ever attended and was also entertaining to boot. Of course the City of Orlando thrives on entertainment.

You may recall that their former pastor Jim Henry garnered the vote vote of man CBFer's when he ran for the SBC presidency with his pledge to "broaden the tent". And many of my pastor friends, some in CBF feel that he did his best to honor that pledge and he took a lot of heat for it from the new SBC power structure.

I would suggest you visit their ministries web pages http://www.firstorlando.com/Ministries.aspx If I where a betting man I would entertain a wager on which church has the most idle space per member, per hour per week, FBC Orlando or where ever it is that you attend. I would take the latter, if I where a betting man. With that said, if I where to live in Orlando I might well attend College Park Baptist, a solid CBF church where BTSR grads would be welcome.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

You are turning my observations into far more of a personal attack on me than an expression of your views on "church as entertainment."

Every mega I know of every stripe is focused highly on entertainment and emotion control more than ministry to people in real ways. They have "classes you can attend," at their church, but how many encourage members to be "little Christs" to all they encounter in their daily walk. Jesus said, "Since you are going, go baptising and making disciples."

My understanding of Jesus and his Disciples was that they walked among the poor and sinful. Did they not accuse him of being with protitutes and sinners? That tells me he escewed the pomp and circumstance of the "socially approved" and met with people wherever they lived and gathered. His miracle of healing with the man lowered through the roof was at a home and not the Temple or a Synagogue! We are too focused on "God's House" rather than letting our own house become one blessed for ministry because we follow God's Son---in my opinion, of course.

[Dave Roberts]

Modern worship centers do not require the massive investment of stained glass windows and pipe organs. They can well be built in much more utilitarian ways and enhanced with theatrical lighting and modern sound systems. Rounded seating gives a much greater sense of community than can be created with straight pews.

Though I don't think stained glass windows and pipe organs are requirements, I think they both add positive aesthetics to the building and the worship experience. Why is "theatrical lighting" an enhancement? What good is it? On modern sound systems, how many microphones does a typical church need? For as church with two or three staff members on stage, I'd say 4 would be adequate. Personally, I have never found a greater "sense of community" in a church with "rounded seating". With "rounded seating" the speaker usually has a portion of the audience facing his back! IMHO.

Chris, as one who loves a well-played pipe organ, I have a great appreciation for them. I do not see them as likely to be the centerpiece of many of the churches being created now, simply because of the price-tag, the costs of maintaining one in good condition, and the lack of organ students who will be able to utilize them properly. The use of theatrical lighting, does require good technicians and the careful use of the images and patterns that can be created. They can be worshipful or highly distracting, and I have seen both.