Frank Page's SBC: Eisenhower or Demint Republicans

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Frank Page's SBC: Eisenhower or Demint Republicans

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:09 pm

From:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... _illusion/

Tea Party or “Christian Worldview”?

It was at an event sponsored by the CEO Roundtable of South Carolina last month that DeMint proposed his litmus test for public school teachers. CEO doesn’t stand for chief executive officer—it stands for Christian Executive Organization, its president, Josh Kimbrell, told me in an interview shortly afterwards. Kimbrell, a banker by training who called DeMint “my dear friend,” said his organization was not a Tea Party group (although he supports the Tea Party), but rather a “Christian worldview” organization that brings together business leaders and pastors (including Kimbrell’s own pastor, Frank Page, a one-time president of the Southern Baptist Convention and now the head of its executive committee, and one of President Obama’s first appointees to the Advisory Council to his Office of Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships).

The country “cannot be successful without a fundamental Judeo-Christian framework,” said Kimbrell, lamenting that the government “has not been guided by Judeo-Christian principles.” Business leaders understand, he said, that those principles help build “strong markets.” That’s not just about the stated Tea Party goals of shrinking the government’s regulatory and taxation powers to zero, or gumming up the legislative process so nothing gets done
Last edited by Stephen Fox on Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Attn Aaron Weaver, Gourley, JPierce and Mercer Prez Underwoo

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:33 pm

http://fromlaw2grace.com/2010/11/11/vir ... s-liberty/

Howell Scott's civl piece on BGAV church state statement at his blog has drawn the attention of Bircher Cleon Skousen's son Paul in the comment exchanges. With the recent New Yorker piece on Father Skousen, this could be interesting development indeed, as Frank Page should be called on to nuance and navigate the recent Sarah Posner piece about his Taylors FBC parishioner Kimbrell.

Hope to see some comments by Gourley and BigDid Weaver on this one as it could be seminal; of some substance for sure.
Do read the New Yorker piece in the comment line of the blog link above
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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Board of Directors and Profile Bios

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:22 pm

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NY Rev Books challenges Richard Land and Beck

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:03 pm

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive ... evelation/

Richard Land by association.

Your Cooperative Program Dollars bankrolling an apologist for Father Coughlin; not much of a reach to say that is how far the SBC has fallen.

How can Pastors continue to say it just doesn't matter that our church blindly fills the coffers of the Cooperative Program and Richard Land.

Where has discernment gone at local church level.
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King's College, Olasky, Frank Page and David Rogers

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:10 pm

While William Thornton is fascinated with David Montoya's take on the esoterics of the BGCT, his energy may be better spent trying to get an articulate word from Frank Page and Ronnie Floyd about how they navigate this latest cloud from the haze around Marvin Olasky.
Richard Land could do some explaining as well.
Page is a trustee of the Jim Demint satellite organization headed by a former parishioner of Page at FBC Taylors.
Land is politically cozy with Glenn Beck. And now comes this King's college fellow from what appears to be the heart of James Dobson ideology.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... _our_time/

How does it all shake down, and who in the SBC will explain the gray areas to the foggy masses who continue to willy nilly fund the Cooperative Program?

Meanwhile back at the ranch at www.sbcimpact.net David Rogers is sounding more like a young Will Campbell than his Father's Son at the height of Ed McAteer's heyday in SBC life in the 80's:

Quoting Rogers:

David Rogers said:
Rob said: “Christians have the obligation in a democratic republic to ‘speak to’ their governments – something that Paul and the apostles simply did not have the ability to do.”

I agree that this is a key point in this discussion. I can see how the comparative opportunity we have to influence culture and society plays in, to some degree, with our corresponding responsibility to do so. From my experience, for example, the stance of evangelicals in Spain toward political involvement is generally very different from that of evangelicals in the U.S. Being a tiny minority, they do not carry a lot of weight in the world of political lobbying. Also, in Spain, the main “voice” speaking out on moral issues is the Catholic church, and it cuts against the grain, so to speak, for evangelicals in Spain to align themselves with the Catholic church, even on moral issues.

That being said, I have participated at one time in a March for Life sponsored by a wide cross-section of evangelicals in Spain. And, evangelicals have been very active in lobbying for freedom of religion and non-discrimination for religious minorities (the issues that have affected them most directly, having been discriminated against historically).

All in all, though, I think that pure biblical Christianity thrives better as a minority position in society than as a majority, or near majority.

Certainly, though, we should not isolate ourselves, and remain detached from the plight of the downtrodden and needy in society. As I argue in my post here (http://www.sbcimpact.net/2010/03/15/chr ... f-culture/), we must faithfully carry out the role of servants in the midst of culture, not separate from culture, or against culture.

Though I do not follow him on open theology, nor on some of the more extreme statements (regarding pacifism, abortion, etc.) toward the end of the book, Greg Boyd, in “The Myth of a Christian Nation,” has some interesting points about influencing from below as opposed to influencing from the corridors of power. From a purely secular, human standpoint, this is counterintuitive. But, I believe the gospel itself is essentially counterintuitive. And, the influence of the gospel works more like leaven than like a sledgehammer.

Also, to a large extent, at the root of this question, lies eschatology. If our ultimate hope were in this world, I believe we would have a greater responsibility to be politically active and intentionally transformationist in our approach to culture. But, history has taught us that, when we as Christians have jumped the gun in trying to impose our values on individuals and entities that have not yet submitted voluntarily to the Lordship of Christ, the results have usually been disastrous, and counterproductive to the advance of the Kingdom of God.

# December 4th 2010 at 12:27 pm


This in response to a David Miller blog of Dec 1 at www.sbcimpact.net
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Not a liberal detractor of Brent Walker

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:41 pm

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5941/53/


There were 19 responses to this Brent Walker piece recently at ABP. I think several show what Truett like church state thought as it would have evolved to this point are up against in the fundamentalist fog machine.
Look at some of these comments. I would hope Frank Page and some of the leadership of the SBC are more clear headed than this, but maybe not.

I do hope the detractors there would have the integrity to read Lepore and Robinson, as I hope many of you will as well.
There should be a way to bring Lepore's book in particular and its thoughts on constitutional fundamentalism to the attention of Frank Page and the Tea Party apologists at his former FBC Taylors, SC.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


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Is this the New SBC Ideology

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:37 pm

Who will call on Frank Page to define himself in regard the links above and the Prevailing Ideology Now in South Carolina "laboratory".

http://www.tnr.com/article/the-permanen ... ikki-haley
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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Frank Page and the "Lie of the Year"

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:51 am

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And the nagging Christian Recon Question for Page and Demint

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:14 pm

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Lyman SC's Sybil Smith

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:31 pm

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article ... -education

Nuances the topography interestingly.

On the face of it I think she speaks with conviction and has an honest appraisal. Would be interesting to see if folks like her can navigate the Page/Demint/SBC thicket with authenticity and integrity.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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Frank Page: Eisenhower or Demint Republican

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:20 pm

My Grandfather Jordan was a Lincoln Republican like Judge Frank Johnson. My Grandfather Fox was a pre Watergate Eisenhower/Nixon Republican and Nixon sent his brother to Iran and China as a trade Rep for Reynolds Aluminum.

The Chapel at Furman is named for one of Nixon's best friends in South Carolina, Charles E. Daniel.

I think it fair to probe Frank Page and Richard Land on this article. I hope to see their inflections soon.
I have already brought it to the attention of Harry Dent's daughter, Ginny Brant; IMB trustee and great friend of Demint, who with Mike Huckabee and David Rogers endorse her book.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... eir_peril/
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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Six letters in two days

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Mar 30, 2011 12:20 pm

Have responded to the RD.org posting of March 28

Here is my offering as published there:

This is a fascinating article. In the framework of another recent article here at religion dispatches, the one revealing Southern Baptist Executive Committee leader Frank Page's connections to the politics of Jim Demint; it's implications are large indeed.
One of the faultlines in the Baptist world as RD contributor Randall Balmer and others know well, is the diminished church state view of President George W. Bush judicial nominee Charles Pickering and his Alliance Defense Fund. Those church state views follow a Demint bent more than they do the historic Anabaptist view of the highly respected Baptist Joint Committee.
The assault on the Baptist Joint Committee in the Baptist struggle of the 80's and 90's was led by Judge Paul Pressler whose ideology was shaped by the Texas Regulars, who worked judiciously with operatives of Senator Jesse Helms to defund the BJC. Former Birch Society member Albert Lee Smith, a dissident in Alabama from the church state views of his father's one time good friend Hugo Black also inflects the Baptist story on church state.
Nixon's Southern Strategist Harry Dent came to influence in the SBC in the late 80's and early 90's. His daughter Ginny Brant--ginnybrant.com--has written a book recently published on her father's religious pilgrimage.
She too has held positions of influence in the SBC, most notably as a Trustee of the SBC International Missions Board.
Her father served as a trustee of Al Mohler's Southern Seminary; also on the SBC Executive Committee which now employs Demints friend Frank Page as its salaried head.
In it, though she lined up with the fundamentalists in the SBC as did her father mentored by Ed Young, Pressler's pastor in Houston Texas, as was Dent's pastor in South Carolina; in her story of her father's pilgrimage, Ginny tries to float as if these nuances don't have any reverberations. Trying to hold her devotion to Demint and Scripture on one hand, while adoringly noting the friendship her family had in Columbia South Carolina with Buck Hatch. Hatch's son Nathan is now President of Wake Forest University, an institution that grandly carries on a church state tradition of the Baptist Joint Committee.
Point being there are many avenues and implications of this article, avenues that are quite significant for the character of our nation, that I hope contributors to Religion Dispatches will continue to examine as grandly as Dr. Chernus has done here.

Stephen Fox, Collinsville, Alabama
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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Huckabee, Parham and Haley Barbour

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Apr 05, 2011 12:14 pm

First Parham takes Barbour's Race History to task:

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/civil-war-fr ... -cms-17700

And this fine effort by Suzi Parker

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/02/27 ... wo-souths/

Somebody should see where Charles Pickering lines up in all this; and explore Barbour on the questions raised above about the difference between Demint and Eisenhower, all inflected and nuanced by SBC Peace Committee's Pickering.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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Richard Land: Beck or Huckabee

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:12 pm

"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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The David Barton factor

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu May 12, 2011 6:10 pm

In the Splintering SBC. Will Frank Page and the SBC Excom address this ideology:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... _universe/
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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Skousen, The Tea Party and the Public Schools

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri May 13, 2011 12:43 pm

Can the SBC rise above this mess, or is the leadership so fogged as to be unable to stand against it.

What is the difference between Charles Pickering's Headset and this mess?

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... urriculum/
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


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Will Frank Page read this book?

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue May 24, 2011 6:44 pm

http://www.tnr.com/article/books/magazi ... tian-right

Will he recommend it to the Jim Demint board on which he sits in South Carolina and to the ExCom of the SBC.

Mark Noll comes highly recommended.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


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Re: Frank Page's SBC: Eisenhower or Demint Republicans

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed May 25, 2011 9:29 am

WOW--Stephen---you are wearing this one out with commentary--albeit--good questions and comments. Let me get a word in edgewise.

I was born in PIckens County, SC. My grandfather owned a 280 acre farm near Taylors at the Berea community where his family attended Berea Baptist church. I have a fair degree of familiarity with upstate SC and was the Associate Pastor of Easley FBC--not that far from Taylors. Taylors is the first "fellowship of excitement" pastored by Ed Young, Sr. Frank Page now profits from being located in a fast grow / yuppie area of the Greenville Metro area.

For some strange reason SC has gone both Conservative Resurgence Baptist as well as Republican. My SC Democrat farmer grandfather would roll over in his grave. Due to his salvation from the Depression with FDR, he would always just check the box above ALL Democratic candidates. Thank God he died before Strom Thurmond became Republican and it was later learned he sired a child with one of his black household servants!

Now, what has happened down South is that---as the economy became robust and dramatic growth took place--with it came a change to Republican in most prosperous Southern States. It proves my father's addage: "The only real difference between a Republican and a Democrat is that a Republican is just a former Democrat who made lots on money--and now wants to keep it all and pay no taxes!"

The Tea Party is just a disgruntled bunch of Republicans who hate paying any taxes and hate the Obama Administration. Their main motivation is hate in my personal observations here in eastern NC. Rush Limbau and other talking heads on FOX get their following from people foolish enough to think paying no taxes benefits our need for a completely renovated infrastructure and the "value" of an "education lottery."

The religious appeal to conservative values via Jerry Fallwell's Moral Majority is but part of the Tea Party origination.

My question is always to "Conservatives": Conserve what????

Conservatives have destroyed the basis of the SBC rather than "conserve it." Republicans are doing their best to destroy the Middle Class in favor of the Wealthy Class. Now they are making Estate Taxes their money focus! Estate Taxation was put in by Congress to defeat the super wealthy "Robber Barons" of railroad / utilities / large corporation origin. It's purpose was to insure America is a middle class paradise without the super wealthy and politically controlling Kings / Queens / Titled wealth of the few in England and Europe. It was becoming such in the late 1800-early 1900 American social strata. It put in heavy taxation of any large Estate as the children paid for the right to inherit large sums from their parents. After $3M now the tax starts at .53 on the dollar and goes upward quickly. It is designed purposely to bankrupt any large estate.

You would think a wise founder of a large estate would recognize this in advance of death and make preparation to pay the tax through a large insurance policy costing them as little as .1 on the dollar if instituted early. At the most it can be done with about $10 on a hundred with a good policy. I worked in this field and found too many wealthy farmers / businessmen thinking they could beat the system and not buy a proper policy. That selfishness and coniving has one potential client of mine sitting on a powder keg when he dies with his $7M estate. Nationwide offered him the proper amount of insurance at the end of the year. He was almost uninsurable with serious health issues, but Nationwide wanted the business so badly they offered the policy at standard rates. I couldn't believe he turned it down. Now he is totally uninsurable as his diabetes and other declining health has him on the edge of his grave. So stupid!!! So costly to me who spent almost a year putting together an appropriate program for him and consulting with his banker / lawyer / tax attorney. It is a complex and time-consuming process.

Anyway, Frank Page is making a 6-digit income leading Taylors FBC--just like every single one of the SBC mega church pastors and most of the Agency heads. Their wealth pushes them toward a political party and its adjunct wanting to pay little or no taxes through creative accounting and the services of good estate advisors. There is no real problem in my view with paying taxes in a country which allowed for such financial success. You can give it away--as many rich folks do--to tax-exempt non-profit institutions. Hence, the Baptist Foundation / CBF Foundation / Universities help the rich remove their tax burden with the promise of a name on a building and wonderful "humanitarian" articles in the media.

Stephen---it's all about the money, honey!!! Pad the church pockets / Republican pockets / Tea Party pockets and get out of paying your wealth to the government. Meanwhile us working folks have our mandated deductions for FICA / Social Security / etc. taken out to the tune of 20-30% of our wages. What a blessing as we hear of Oil Companies and large Corporations paying $0 in taxes over the last several "most profitable" years. It gets even better with criticism of "Obamacare" which no one can really tell you why it is so bad---just give it a derisive title tantamount to "liberal!!!"
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Mark Noll and Pickens South Carolina

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri May 27, 2011 6:22 pm

Gene: That was interesting but your time and mine as well, not to mention the 40 or so other folks who might read this would be better served if you would read Joe Crespino's In Search of Another country as well as make a way to find Mark Noll's review in Print issue of New Republic.
Maybe have some of our mutual acquaintances take a copy by the Billy Graham Library in Charlotte :lol: :lol: :brick: :brick: :brick:

Had a good chat with some folks from Clemson today. They know about my niece's restaurant there in Orange Town.
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Re: Frank Page's SBC: Eisenhower or Demint Republicans

Postby Gene Scarborough » Fri May 27, 2011 7:08 pm

When you have a lifetime of experiences as I cited above---why deal in the ivory tower of writers you mention???
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Busted Myths

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jun 02, 2011 1:53 pm

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/myth-busted- ... -cms-17984

Thought about new topic for this one but thought it would be great resource in this thread. Heard Glenn Beck yesterday and De La Torre is great counterpoint.

Hope Frank Page is taking a look.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


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Re: Busted Myths

Postby Jim » Thu Jun 02, 2011 4:21 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:http://www.ethicsdaily.com/myth-busted-u-s-not-founded-as-christian-nation-cms-17984

Thought about new topic for this one but thought it would be great resource in this thread. Heard Glenn Beck yesterday and De La Torre is great counterpoint.

Hope Frank Page is taking a look.

De La Torre: The Founding Fathers may be great men. Yet the simple truth is that heaven is not for those who unrepentantly profited and participated in the act of genocide.

Actually, the Founders are not still around. If the conflict with the Indians was genocide, every race of people in every era has been guilty of it, since push and shove has always been the norm. As for heaven, DLT has no more idea about that than I have, and that ain’t much.

The second fruit that reveals the nature of the Founding Fathers' tree was slavery.

Okay…let’s whip that dead horse again. Slavery was introduced in the colonies about 170 years before the USA was born and couldn’t have been forestalled overnight. Think British colonialism. It took this government only about 70 years to get rid of it, but that’s not good enough for the super-self-righteous DLT.

One simply cannot reconcile the satanic institution of slavery with the Christian faith. To do so only makes a mockery of Jesus' mission.

One wonders whom DLT has in mind. Soon after 1800 (maybe 1809, Lincoln’s birth year), the importation of slaves was stopped by law. Many if not most of the Founders were still living then and the country was hardly 20 years old. They didn’t try to reconcile slavery with anything. They were already in the process of getting rid of it but that’s not good enough for the supercilious among us.

Regardless of how many Bible verses are quoted by these Founding Fathers, the repugnant practice of trading in human flesh stands as testament to their rejection of the basic Gospel message.

And that’s precisely why they started getting rid of it in relatively short order, a testimony to their acceptance, not rejection, of the “basic Gospel message,” whatever that is. Is there a Gospel message that’s not basic?

Again, there is no one in heaven who unrepentantly profited and participated in the institution of slavery.

One supposes that DLT has been beyond the Pearly Gates and down the Main Street of gold, taking the census and determining what the consensus of its inhabitants is concerning who is and is not there. If not, he has taken it upon himself to do the work of God in Christ and that’s about as unrepentant as it gets concerning super-ego and noxious narcissism.
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Biblical Worldview: Seek church in a Pinch

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:29 am

http://www.religiondispatches.org/dispa ... %2C_again/

Political gospel of Ralph Reed as he distinguishes himself from Family Research Council.

How do the local churches that make up SBC define themselves related to this Gospel. And if their autonomy differs from Frank Page, who funds whom?
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
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OUtcroppings of Frank Page's SBC

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:04 pm

Howell Scott recent blog with a comment by our own William Thornton who has given a caveatted endorsement of Mitt Romney

http://fromlaw2grace.com/2011/06/03/new ... edfellows/
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


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Re: Frank Page's SBC: Eisenhower or Demint Republicans

Postby Jim » Fri Jun 03, 2011 7:40 pm

Gingrich is smarter than most of the candidates and he’s done some significant things, but he’s far too flawed to be acceptable as president, notwithstanding that the voters put Bill Clinton in office twice, a virtual paradigmatic approval of not only adultery but perversion, as well. Either of his opponents was far superior from a moral standpoint, as far as is known publicly, and there’s been plenty of time for the media cutthroats to have massacred Bush 41 and Dole since then. Also, both had extensive or painful military combat experience, as did Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Nixon and Ford. Carter and Bush 43 had considerable non-combat experience as well. None of that mattered, despite Clinton’s admitted “loathing” of the military. Gingrich also has had no military experience but then that’s the case with most of the candidates, including Obama, awkward in any military setting. More’s the pity when national security is the first priority for any president. Gingrich has shown a lack of common sense by his constant references to the public getting a “twofer” if he’s elected. The public is not interested in a man and wife team running the country. The Clintons proved that. The election of Clinton seemed at the time to indicate that morals mean nothing, but adultery seems now to be synonymous with dishonesty, a killer charge against any officeholder, no matter whether or not deserving of it. He who cheats on his wife is not to be trusted in anything.

As for Land, I was against the SBC CLC from the start. When the office was moved to D.C., it became political and denominations should stay out of politics, a purely personal matter. Baptists come in all shapes and sizes and should never be painted with a broad brush, which happens every time Land says anything.
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