What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

[Ed Pettibone]

Timothy, I don't think the letter of the man's present church is an example of protecting the perp. Why do you think it is?

William,

Not the letter itself but their choice to let the man be anonymous when they knew who he was.

I know how it is raising a child in the church as many of you all do. My daughter thought of the church as home, she trusted the people she met there. It was both my responsibility and the church's responsibility to make sure that such trust is well founded. To let a known sexual predator in the church without so much as a word of warning to the parents of children and youth of the church is unconscionable. And frankly it is paternalistic. It says "we are the leaders of the church and we know better than the congregation would if they knew about this situation."

Anyone who messes with 15 year old girls IN CHURCH shouldn't be able to be anonymous IN CHURCH where other people could be endangered. That's my take.

Ed: So William how should every one in the church be notified? Must the offending individual wear a scarlet P .

Note the letter to which you linked says the man attended "essentially anonymously" The pastor know the deacons knew , it does not say that no one else knew. I read essentially anonymously to say with out fanfare.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed I think you are responding to to me and not William. And I continue to be disturbed that you seem more concerned about the well being of the criminal than about the well being of those around him. If he didn't wanted to be singled out, didn't want to be known as an abuser than he could have simply not abused a 15 year old girl. Sin has consequences.

Ed: Yes Timothy, my comment addressed to William should have been addressed to you. Yes sin has consequences where have I suggested otherwise. In this case it appears the man is going to jail. I am not sure where you get the idea that I am more concerned with the criminal than with those around him. I am concerned with both. I am also concerned with the idea that many churches and parents have apparently not developed a relationship with their youngsters, so that if approached by an adult or any one else with an indecent proposals, they will "Just say no" and report the incident to another adult.

I am also concerned that so many here seem ready to make judgements based on assumptions rather than facts at hand. I have seen nothing about this offence having occurred "in Church" .

Perhaps we should look at another case involving a 15 year old girl in Trenton, New Jersey who just this week was accused of prostituting herself AND her 7 year old step sister to to a gang of young hoodlums in their neighborhood, The Trenton Police did not excuse her because of her age but charged her with prostitution and child endangerment. This case came to light when a stranger ( a woman) found the 7 year old wandering the street crying and the youngster told her what had happened. She also said she had gone to the site of the attack with the older girl because she thought the older one might get hurt.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 7813.story

The story at this link gives more detail than the first account that i read yesterday.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed again there is no question that the pastor abused the 15 year old girl and not the other way around. Simply because some 15 year old girl did something evil to her younger sister does not in any way absolve pastoral abuse of under aged parishioners. Who are you trying to protect here Ed?

ED: What makes you think I am trying to protect any one here? I don't know that I know any one involved in this case although I may have met some of the current Deacons when visiting that church nearly two decades ago.

Tim. As to "in church." If the act occurred between a pastor and an under aged parishioner then it occurred "within the church." A pastor is a pastor not matter where they are. And the responsibility is the same between a pastor and church member no matter where they are. Abuse occurred within the body of Christ.

And Tim, do we know that the girl involved was a parishioner? I may have missed that. But then I have agreed that the man in question was horribly wrong. And for a point of information do you always equate parishioner and church member.

TIm: It is the kind of unknowing welling meaning blind attitudes about protecting abusive clergy that has gotten churches around the world in such a mess over abuse. Honestly the man involved as an abuser shouldn't be able to be within 100 feet of anyone under the age of 18 not related to him. I'm surprised there isn't a court order to that effect. I'm surprised he isn't sitting in jail until his trial.

I'm done with this topic Ed. I don't think any of us are going to get through to you on this.

Ed: Tim if you are accusing me of "unknowing welling meaning blind attitudes about protecting abusive clergy that has gotten churches around the world in such a mess over abuse." based on this thread your reading comprehension in less than i have ever imagined.

And Tim how could any one live and function if they where restricted from being able to be within 100 feet of anyone under the age of 18 not related to him. Also, for how long would you require such penalty. If a former ABC pastor who had served time for the same offense moved to the Des Moine area and recognized your name on some FBC material and from some early contact in your career, contacted you about attending FBC how would you respond? And Tim, If you have followed this case as presented here, it appears that the subject is not awaiting trial. He is awaiting sentencing on Thursday of this week and I do not know that he has not been sitting in jail since pleading guilty.

I do hope that if you decide to change your mind about participating in this thread you will go back and get up to speed on it. But you are right no one who has posted in this thread using the tact employed by Crista, William and yourself are going to change my mind and I don't see any one else trying. And I would be quite content to let the basic issue rest unless and until William through Christa brings it up again. The topic is a sticky wicket and no two cases that I have read are the same. To the best of my knowledge in my 55 year of Baptist life I have never personally known a pastor or a parishioner involved in such a case. In a few of my secular jobs Employment Counselor , Welfare case worker, Mental Health worker, I have dealt with men and women who do fit the profile and I am convinced that it is a sin for those of us in the Church to turn our backs on them.

[William Thornton]

I'm done with this also. Absurd is too kind a word.

[Hal Eaton]

William sez: "Ed and Hal are both ignorant here. The facts of the case don't lend themselves to your conclusion. Both of you foolishly blame the victim."

But I had said (in my introductory line): "It's too bad that the expression of opinions on both sides of this issue end up with reprimands, accusations, and name-calling on both sides."

Notice that I did not assign blame to anyone; I noted the psychological pressures which can contribute to unfortunate (sinful or not) conduct of perpetrators/victims, young or old. Seldom have we had such harsh judgmental expressions on a situation about which none of us begin to know all the elements involved.

To tell the story, without sufficient detail, and soliciting responses, is akin to saying "sic 'em" to a dog. And perhaps it would be profitable to review the psychological influences which have assisted in forming the written responses herein. (I have assessed mine; how 'bout you?)

[William Thornton]

On the victims in such cases sharing the blame, Baptist Planet offers this link:

Church blames Devil-inspired children over sex abuse

exerpt:

I met an old priest tucked away in a nursing home despite the fact he was not unwell.

At one point he suggested Cardinal Ó Fiaich should be canonised, I rejected the idea, pointing out he was involved in the cover-up of abuse.

The old priest said: “People should forgive him, after all we are prepared to forgive the children.” I asked: “Forgive the children what?” He replied: “Their share of the blame.”

What's the difference between this old priest and his view of blame for clergy child sex abuse and suggesting, in the context of this case of sexual abuse perpetrated by a 49 year old pastor on a 15 year old teen in his church that " help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens"?

Not much difference that I can see.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I have brought this thread to the surface as the result of of a heads up to me by Aaron (AKA Big Daddy) Weaver on on another board at this site. Aaron directed me to a long list of Baptist (mostly Southern Baptist) leaders compiled Christa Brown a former attorney in Texas who has for several years been on a crusade to force the SBC to create a registry of clergy who have been accused of sexual impropriety especially in cases involving under age parishioners. This list is made up of people who Christa charges with protecting sexual predators in the clergy.

This thread started with a discussion of one church in Indiana that took pro active action to be involved with the redemption of a pastor from another church who has confessed to having been involved with a 15 year old girl in his former congregation and at the time was awaiting sentencing.

To my amazement Christa or some one at her organization has included me in their list of those attempting to protect predators. Her by offering consist of a few words and phrases lifted out of their much longer original context and she embellishes them with her own reading of what is meant in an effort to make them look like evidence of her false claim. To her credit Christa states her purpose and that of her organization is to stop clergy who are sexual predators.

Should I have been surprised, to be on a list from Christa perhaps not. It has long been my position that her methodology and many of her accusations are less than ethical and fail to make adequate distinction between the accused and the guilty. I have said that she take on too many roles, from investigative reporter, to prosecutor, to jury and Judge. I invite all to read a month or so of her blog post for confirmation. That might not bother me if she where an average working housewife in a field other than Law. But with her training I have a notion that she that she could/should display greater respect for due process and accurate reporting.

In the list she inaccurately identifies me as "a retired Baptist Pastor", I am not. I did enter college in 1956 as a ministerial student but majoring in Sociology, after a few years I discovered other ministries apart from the pastorate. I also entered SBTS in 1963. after a year of classes in RE not SW, I dropped out to wait for them to get the social work program operating, and went to work as a welfare worker in my home county in Indiana. Later I was recruited by the Labor dept to a program to train counselors to work with "the Hard Core unemployed" . I worked with the Indiana Employment Security Div for several years before retiring in 1985. I latter worked in a Florida facility caring for mentally retarded and at the Lee County Mental health Crisis unit. I did return to SBTS in Jan. 1990 and earned an MA in Christian Education, in 1992. Then came the Takeover of the SBC. My last full time employment was at Parr's Rest a Baptist owned "Home for old Ladies" in Louisville KY., as identified on the papers of incorporation. That was while my wife was working doing her M. Div. at southern 1995-98. We have been members of American Baptist churches since 1999 while Trudy was studying at Hebrew Union in Cincinnati. Trudy has been a pastor since 2001. And I served as a lay person on the ABCNYS Board of missions for two years while in the Adirondack association. We are now in the Capital Area of the state.

As I have said previously In a few of my secular jobs, Employment Counselor, Welfare case worker, Mental Health worker, I have dealt with men and women who do fit the predator profile, and I am convinced many are redeemable and that it is a sin for those of us in the Church to turn our backs on them. Errant former pastors should be no exception to our redemptive efforts. If that bothers Christa Brown - I will be glad to chat with her on these boards not on her turf where she controls the edit button.

[William Thornton]

Ed, I got your PM and read your post above but I don't know where Christa Brown has your name in a list. If you want to link it or PM me with the link, I will look at it.

If you want to avoid being on her list, please stop contributing to any discussions of clergy sex abuse. After refreshing my memory of the discussion from April on this particular abuse case involving a 49 year old pastor and a 15 year old girl, I can see why you get special mention from Brown.

Your posts on the subject and your previous exchanges with Christa Brown are really painful to read. You will help yourself if you just avoid the subject. While I suspect that you would take the right actions should you be confronted with a case of clergy abuse in an arena you are involved in, you are either ignorant or woefully incapable of expressing yourself when discussing such things.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed, I got your PM and read your post above but I don't know where Christa Brown has your name in a list. If you want to link it or PM me with the link, I will look at it.

If you want to avoid being on her list, please stop contributing to any discussions of clergy sex abuse. After refreshing my memory of the discussion from April on this particular abuse case involving a 49 year old pastor and a 15 year old girl, I can see why you get special mention from Brown.

Your posts on the subject and your previous exchanges with Christa Brown are really painful to read. You will help yourself if you just avoid the subject. While I suspect that you would take the right actions should you be confronted with a case of clergy abuse in an arena you are involved in, you are either ignorant or woefully incapable of expressing yourself when discussing such things.

Ed: Yea William I am so ignorant that I know the church the where the offender in this case is not in Franklin Indiana as Christa has reported it is in a small town from whence it gets it name (New Whiteland) Baptist Church. New Whiteland is in Johnson County. The city of Frankin is also in Johnson county.

And I note you also call the senior participant in this forum ignorant on this subject. The fact is you are one who has frequently drug up Christa's reports to these boards, reports which have often contain erroneous information. She accuses me of protecting sex offenders and blaming a particular victim, by wrongly analyzing five or six words of a lengthy paragraph from me. So you say I should "please stop contributing to any discussions of clergy sex abuse". I blamed no individual victim but I stand by the idea that not all victims are totally blameless. And Christa seems to exonerate any and all underage participants in these cases. Her treatment of these horrendous crime makes all So. Baptist Pastors look bad.

[William Thornton]

I blamed no individual victim but I stand by the idea that not all victims are totally blameless. And Christa seems to exonerate any and all underage participants in these cases. Her treatment of these horrendous crime makes all So. Baptist Pastors look bad.

I rest my case that you should stop posting. But if you want to provide Christa and any other sensible person with more of your stuff to use against you (and if she reads your post above, she would find it as good as any of yours to indict you by), go ahead and make a case for how some underage pariticpants share some of the blame for being abused by adults. Sheesh.

I stand by my suggestion that you no longer participate in these discussions.

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed you are digging a deep hole and burying yourself. Please go take a course in clergy sexual ethics from your ABC region and you will find out that blaming the victim in any way shape or form is inappropriate. The clergy person is the person with formal and institutional power and the one with the full responsibility because of his/her position of leadership to guarantee that nothing inappropriate happens.

I would strongly encourage you not to say another word on the subject until you have taken a new course on the subject. The information you have is either erroneous or has been superseded by more accurate and recent information. I'm sure your region offers such a course for its clergy.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed you are digging a deep hole and burying yourself. Please go take a course in clergy sexual ethics from your ABC region and you will find out that blaming the victim in any way shape or form is inappropriate. The clergy person is the person with formal and institutional power and the one with the full responsibility because of his/her position of leadership to guarantee that nothing inappropriate happens.

I would strongly encourage you not to say another word on the subject until you have taken a new course on the subject. The information you have is either erroneous or has been superseded by more accurate and recent information. I'm sure your region offers such a course for its clergy.

Ed: I remind you I am not nor have I ever been a clergy person. Furthermore I have no intention of taking the new course at $90.00 for one day, bring your own lunch. Because it is required to continue Ministerial status it so happens, Trudy is signed up to take the class this Thursday. I am looking forward to reviewing the Materials and her recording of the session.

I note you say "that blaming the victim in any way shape or form is inappropriate" I would agree, however it is in my studied opinion in discussing the general phenomenon of Clergy sexual abuse and what churches may do about preventing it there must be discussion of how to prepare children especially teens ways to avoid the danger, which includes, Proper dress, language and over all decorum. Please note in these discussion I have not blamed any individual teen. But yes I do believe that in some cases such teens would not have been involved if they had sufficent training, and yes starting at home. And that in some cases the teen females have encouraged the advances usually unwittingly but not in every case. I mention females here because I have no case studies on boys seduced by female pastors, although reports have it, that such seduction is becoming more and more common in schools between teachers and students.

And it is a proven fact that not every teenager is a pure sexually inhibited virgin, not even all those in our Churches.
Does this excuse the adults who are sexually involved with children of any age any extent, Absolutely Not!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Did you receive the PM with map to HicktownPress discussions? Did it work?

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed I'm aware you aren't clergy. But I still think the course would be valuable information for you.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed I'm aware you aren't clergy. But I still think the course would be valuable information for you.

Ed: Tim, is your $90.00 check to cover the cost in the mail. Seriously I am not sure that a one day program is worth the drive to downtown Albany. I note Christa has "corrected" my status from "retired Baptist pastor" to "former Baptist minister". In that all Christians are called to minister to others and I believe I do, Christas designation could still use tweeking. Baptist layman would do fine.
She says in hr infamous list that She has been informed that I am not a pastor but does not mention that it was I who informed her.

But back to my taking the boundaries course, in addition to my reluctance to spend the money I question the viability of a one day "Course" ; see definition of course: = education imparted in a series of lessons or meetings;

I am also a longtime student of Human interaction. With an undergraduate degree in Sociology, An 8 week program at the Graduate level in working with the "Hard Core Disadvantaged" taken in residence at Kent State university. 21 hours of masters level Counseling and Guidance from IUPUI and on the Purdue Campus in W. Lafayette. Unfortunately Purdue changed the availability of night classes and I was unable to take the required classes in statistics and to participate in the Counseling practicums to get a degree. I also have certificates in Crisis Intervention from the Grant Blackford mental health association and from the State of Florida Mental health Department. Primarily for my own satisfaction, after retirement I returned to seminary in 1990 and did a Masters of Christian Education at SBTS, while it was still under moderate administrators. The handwriting was already on the wall foreshadowing the closure of the Social work program at Southern by the new ultra conservative and fundamentalist trustees. And no I am not saying that there is nothing for me to learn about the subject of sexual abuse.

While we are here I would point out that SNAP and Christa Brown but use a lot of ink about church and church leaders attempting to sutp fol up. And here in this thread when some one suggest a different tact in dealing with the problem of Clergy Sexual abuse Christa, You and William attempt the same thing.

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed I think you are missing the point. I'm sorry you discount so easily the training that denominations are doing in the area of abuse prevention. I've been to a number of these workshops and found them to be quite valuable. I have an undergrad degree in Behavioral Science from the 1980s and I can tell you that a lot has happened since then in areas of societal attitudes towards children, a lot more issues of abuse are now known than was ever known then. And a lot more study has been done on the subject since then. So unless you took a course pretty recently, I'm not impressed with how current you are on the subject.

The fact remains that you dug this hole yourself and that for some reason you keep digging. When you hit China let me know.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed I think you are missing the point. I'm sorry you discount so easily the training that denominations are doing in the area of abuse prevention. I've been to a number of these workshops and found them to be quite valuable. I have an undergrad degree in Behavioral Science from the 1980s and I can tell you that a lot has happened since then in areas of societal attitudes towards children, a lot more issues of abuse are now known than was ever known then. And a lot more study has been done on the subject since then. So unless you took a course pretty recently, I'm not impressed with how current you are on the subject.

Ed: Tim, who is so easily discounting the training that denominations are doing in the area of abuse prevention. While you are at it tell me how much actual abuse prevention Christa Brown has done. She continues to abuse the families of former church workers who have serve their time for their crimes.

I admit I have not had any formal training in this area since 1995. But I am persuaded that my educational experience listed above combined with over 25 years of hands on experience dealing with troubled individuals, many victims of abuse and some who had committed abuse is invaluable in self study in this and other areas of human interaction. Thank you for your concern but Ii am not trying to impress you. But do tell us How much formal academic training you have had taken in this area since you received your M. Div in the late eighties. Putting my wife through 3 years of undergrad and 3 years of seminary, plus a 2nd masters and six years of subsidizing her ministry in the Adirondacks before she was call to a good paying position cut into our long term savings and I hope to see her reserve rebuild somewhat while I am still alive. Should I expect your check for my continuing Education.

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed I've taken two classes in the area of clergy abuse prevention and healthy ministerial relationships. The first I took with ABC/IN-KY in I believe 1996. The second class I took on July 10th, 2010 given by the Iowa Conference of United Methodists. And I will be taking a refresher course every three years from now on as clergy serving in the UMC. For UMC clergy these classes aren't optional. They are a condition of appointment.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed I've taken two classes in the area of clergy abuse prevention and healthy ministerial relationships. The first I took with ABC/IN-KY in I believe 1996. The second class I took on July 10th, 2010 given by the Iowa Conference of United Methodists. And I will be taking a refresher course every three years from now on as clergy serving in the UMC. For UMC clergy these classes aren't optional. They are a condition of appointment.

Ed: Thanks Tim, as I mentioned before Trudy is taking a refresher class on Thursday of this week and I will study the materials as well as listen to a recording she will make. I least I left a false impression in my post prior to this one Trudy did also work P/T off and on through her Bachelors and the first masters.

Over the years we have been in churches where there where some children who have been abused out side of the churh but to the best of my knowledge that abuse was of a sexual nature in only two cases. NONE of those cases in my 58 years of regular church attendance, physical, psychological or sexual has involved pastors.

If I where a teen especially a teen age girl, who has read Christa's Blog I might be terrified of going into church with out a strong adult to hold onto. And yes every church should have strong adults that those who are threatened may turn to.
I am glad to see via their website that the church in which the events on which this thread is built
seems to be recovering despite The Stop Baptist Predators website.

Again my problem is with their methodology not the stated purpose.

[Timothy Bonney]

Again my problem is with their methodology not the stated purpose.

Ed I think the SBC brought Christa's methodology on themselves. When you talk and no one listens pretty soon you end up having to shout to be heard.

The SBC could do as the ABC has done and create a clergy registry which would allow them to recognize clergy or blackball offenders when necessary. They are the largest non-catholic denomination in the US. They could do it. They just won't do it. And so anytime an SBC minister commits abuse the denomination carries some level of blame for not creating a system to deal with abuse.

I know local church autonomy is a very high value belief for Baptists. But I have a hard time seeing local church autonomy trumping the safety of children and the overall well being of the church.

[Ed Pettibone]

Again my problem is with their methodology not the stated purpose.

Ed I think the SBC brought Christa's methodology on themselves. When you talk and no one listens pretty soon you end up having to shout to be heard.

The SBC could do as the ABC has done and create a clergy registry which would allow them to recognize clergy or blackball offenders when necessary. They are the largest non-catholic denomination in the US. They could do it. They just won't do it. And so anytime an SBC minister commits abuse the denomination carries some level of blame for not creating a system to deal with abuse.

I know local church autonomy is a very high value belief for Baptists. But I have a hard time seeing local church autonomy trumping the safety of children and the overall well being of the church.

Ed: TIm, there are list, that are maintained by Police and Sheriffs offices nationwide. Search committees should utilize these. Doing a check any place an applicant has lived.

Half truths and innuendo and sloppy information are never justified no matter to what degree ones pleas have gone ignored. And BTW, I am not in the SBC, haven't been for 12 years, and never heard of CB when I was. Yet she accuses me of collusion with a lengthy list of SBC leadership, to protect offenders. Presumably because I oppose her methodology, including the absolute exoneration of all victims. And honestly I cannot see that her efforts have reduced the problem significantly if at all. Oh some have gone to jail, but in the many of those cases Christa's organization had nothing to do with the outcome.

And Tim technically, the only "SBC ministers" are missionaries. Baptist pastors as we both know are hired and fired by local churches.

[Timothy Bonney]

And Tim technically, the only "SBC ministers" are missionaries. Baptist pastors as we both know are hired and fired by local churches.

I don't think so Ed. Southern Baptist ministers have their membership in a local Southern Baptist church. They are, by virtue of their local church membership and their ordination by an SBC church, a Southern Baptist minister. If that isn't the case then members of local churches aren't Southern Baptists either since they also don't hold membership in a national body of Southern Baptists. Technically that would mean their are no Southern Baptists.

The commonly held view is that a pastor who has been ordained by a Southern Baptist church and holds membership in an SBC church is a Southern Baptist minister.

[Timothy Bonney]

Presumably because I oppose her methodology, including the absolute exoneration of all victims.

Ed this is what got you on the list. And you just don't get it. Your view that victims carry responsibility for their abuse is offensive. In fact, it is shockingly and unbelievably offensive.

[Ed Pettibone]

Presumably because I oppose her methodology, including the absolute exoneration of all victims.

Ed this is what got you on the list. And you just don't get it. Your view that victims carry responsibility for their abuse is offensive. In fact, it is shockingly and unbelievably offensive.

Ed: Tim I feel almost as alienated by your position wherein it seems you totally excuse every teen who is or has been involved sexually with an adult. I had been trained to reject that idea by the time I was 12. I was also trained that if I was propositioned that I should as soon as possible report the offence to a trusted adult. And I was trained early that sexual activity out side of marriage was unacceptable. And as an adult working in a school I not only had 13, &14, year old girls flirt with me, I was flat out propositioned. I have also observed some very inappropriate suggestive behavior among teens in various churches. At times when I have addressed this to other adults I have gotten "Oh well, Kids will be Kids". I believe those are the real enablers to this topic.

And No, I do not get the idea pushed by You and William and Christa that every teen who has been involved sexually with a pastor ( and may I presume any adult) is totally innocent. I think you all must have blinders on. In your book, at what age do people become responsible?

And again I am not nor have I ever suggested that a teens behavior excuses an adult from their responsibility .

I pray that some one will come along to address the issue on the National front with more reason than I see coming from the current leadership.

Unfortunately, I don't think that you and I are the only ones talking past one another.