SBC Plodder on Lottie Moon, WMU's Weatherford and CBF

[Stephen Fox]

http://sbcplodder.blogspot.com/2010/07/ ... sions.html

AAron BDidd Weaver makes a good comment there.

If Dawson Memorial in Bham or the WMU ever publicly updates and navigates Thornton's point; somebody please give us a report.

Or isn't it time Wade Burleson and some of the churches he influences, find entities in the CBF network they can send some of their CP money too, if they are weary of supporting the whole shooting match.

[William Thornton]

Thanks, Stephen.

Carolyn Crumpler, former WMB head and a name from the SBC Controversy past, walks in a CBF church and sees that they still promote and receive a Lottie Moon offering...and is, uh, not excited about that.

I merely commented: "If one’s primary love is missions then wouldn’t one expect that even SBC missions, Lottie Moon missions would be praised, commended, and supported? We aren't dealing with a zero sum pool of missions support, are we?"

As the ABP story goes: "...CBF churches continue to fund Southern Baptist Convention missionaries by allowing members to designate gifts to the Lottie Moon Christmas Offering, a former executive director of Woman's Missionary Union said June 25."

Which reminds me of the many discussions Mark and I had here over SBC churches not allowing members to designate to the CBF (My suggestion: "Here, this is the CBF's address. Mail your check directly to them.").

Were CBF leaning churches (and almost all of them merely lean and haven't fallen completely in) to prohibit Lottie Moon and other SBC stuff, wonder what the members would do?

Apparently, not many churches have the guts to try.

[Sandy]

If it bothers CBF leaders that something like 90% of their partnering congregations remain affiliated with and supportive of the SBC's Cooperative Program, there's a way to deal with that. If they don't like that, and they feel that their partner churches are cheating them by also contributing to the SBC, they need to tell them to quit doing it. Twenty years of promotion, talking about "a new way to be Baptist," exclusive "invitation only" dialogue meetings and continuous, caustic criticism of "those SBC Fundamentalists" hasn't turned the trick. The number of partnering churches has dropped off by several hundred, and giving to the general fund has fallen a lot faster and further than CP giving in the SBC. Seems to me it is time for CBF to tell its partnering churches to get with the program, if it wants a future.

[William Thornton]

Well put, Timothy and Sandy, and almost exactly what I wrote years ago here.

The next five years should be interesting. Vestal is about five years overdue from turning that outfit over to someone younger, with different ideas, and more enthusiasm. I get the sense that the old lions are dying (Sherman), or are doing a circuit to pick up their awards (Crumpler) while the status quo continues not to work for the CBF.

The SBC is big enough, established enough to lumber along with pedestrian leadership and nothing much is harmed in the short haul. Not so the CBF...seems to me...but they do have some nice meetings.

You know, if Sandy exits the SBC, then this forum might be renamed: SBC News and Trends as seen by ex-SBCers.

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

OK, Ed. The CBF is a declining organization by almost any measure. What do you think ought to be done about it?

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

Ed, I would never argue that the CBF can't round up a good crowd for a meeting. It's making a budget, etc. that seems to be difficult.

[Sandy]

CBF's claimed box score of partnering churches is about 1,800, though I think that figure is probably several years old. CBF insiders I know around here now would estimate that figure at about 1,500 now, given its budget declines. Their website shows a list of about 200 churches with links, and if you start clicking links, you'll find that an overwhelming majority of those churches are still "in friendly cooperation" with the SBC to some degree. There are several churches that I would consider "core" CBF congregations that surprised me by the level of support they still provide to the SBC. At the last GA I attended, about five or six years ago, the estimated number of churches aligned exclusively with CBF was about 120, less than 10% of the total.

I'd expect that a meeting of CBF in Charlotte, more or less the geographic heart of CBF, in the state with more partnering churches than any other, and next to Virginia and Georgia, which rank 2 and 3 respectively, would draw record attendance instead of second highest ever. And of course, being less than a half day drive from virtually half of the parterning educational institutions, you'd expect a lot of the students there.

After 20 years, CBF hasn't been able to expand its missionary base, has seen inordinately large declines in budget giving, and hasn't really developed an identity beyond being "we're not the SBC." It wasn't really a major player, in terms of actual bodies in attendance, at Carter's New Baptist Covenant gathering, which has really petered out in terms of overall participation once it moved away from the Atlanta meetings of the four African American groups that provided about 90% of the original attendance. I don't think it would be a bad thing for it to define itself more closely, since being a "fellowship" for "moderates disaffected by the SBC conservative resurgence" hasn't really worked.

[Sandy]

[Tim Dahl]

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

So a group needs to use the word evangelism in order to be in the business of evangelizing?

Pretty sure that when Vestal talks about being a missional church and specifically being the presence of Christ, he understands that to involve sharing the Good News....

[William Thornton]

Ed and BDW, we all get to opine and that based on our perceptions of things. Since I'm an outsider whose CBF news comes from you guys, a few meetings, ABP, Baptists Today and The Fellowship, I almost always include caveats with mine on the CBF. Perhaps mine are off base here. I'd be pleased if they are. Nonetheless, the SBC has a verifiable record on church plants. It may be anemic, underwhelming or whatever, there are numerous SBC churches planted every year. I just don't see that with the CBF.

When I hear from the CBF a steady diet of "being the presence of God," I get that old feeling that authentic evangelism that includes lostness and salvation by grace through faith in Christ is not a priority. Maybe I'm wrong there as well. Again, I hope so. I don't hear Vestal speaking with the same fervor as 15 years ago. Maybe I'm wrong there as well.

With so few available CBF pulpits and so little CBF church planting, I still wonder where all the divinity school grads are going.

But, the CBF can have some pretty good meetin's, do a lot of backslapping...just like the SBC.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: William writes in part;

A"When I hear from the CBF a steady diet of "being the presence of God," I get that old feeling that authentic evangelism that includes lostness and salvation by grace through faith in Christ is not a priority. Maybe I'm wrong there as well. Again, I hope so. I don't hear Vestal speaking with the same fervor as 15 years ago. Maybe I'm wrong there as well.

Ed: And if you where really listing you would know that indeed there are many CBFers Around the world being the presence of God. come to our BFNE fall retreat n New Jersey in October and I will introduce you to some of them. Come early enough and we can run over to Metropolitan Baptist Church at the edge of Hells Kitchen. and Down to Restoration Baptist Church and their ministry to the subsidized apartments called the Albany projects, in Brooklyn. Meet Dr. Manor Tyson who's Waterbury Baptist Church rents space in a beautiful Presbyterian church building where they misters mostly to street people. Manor and his wife Ronie, both are Graduates of the Social Work School that was at SBTC until Al Mohler declared accredited social work programs incompatible with seminary education. And Randy Parks who is a CBF certified Chaplin at retirement facility in Jersey., You already Know Trudy and I. There will also be two of our couples who minister to students ,often international students and A lady Church planter from Main. There may also be a group there from MA. who attend Swansea Baptiat Church which was for a short time an SBC Church plant until their pastor got friendly with CBF and the HMB said that was un acceptable. when we came to the NE 6 years ago they had already been CBF for at least 6years they have members who have never been any type of baptist other than CBF.

And If you Talk to Danial he will tell you about the spiritual journey he has been on for several years now that had led him to work more in spiritual development than in dip em and drop em evangelism. It is not that he has lost the fervor he simply has rechanneled it. Talking to him in person over a couple meals in recent years I find an even more mature Dan Vestal than I first met several years ago. And he works at being an Executive Coordinator rather than CEO as you mistakenly labeled him n a post yesterday.

Wm:B. With so few available CBF pulpits and so little CBF church planting, I still wonder where all the divinity school grads are going.

Ed: I am not sure that there as "so few available CBF pulpits as Sandy has pointed out a good number of the early CBF pastors have retired and more are reaching retirement age and there are many seminary students who are not interested in the pastorate some of those aspire to other staff positions. Also many are entering a wide variety of Chaplain positions some are coming to ABC-USA, some are black students who are met with welcome arms in traditional black churches. Surprising to me are the number of SBC churches that are recruiting through CBF Trudy had some conversation with a few of those before being called to Burnt Hills.

Wm: C. But, the CBF can have some pretty good meetin's, do a lot of backslapping...just like the SBC.

Ed: William some folk who have never been to both post takeover SBC annual meetings and CBF Assemblies may buy that
"just like the SBC" , Hokum, but several of us on these boards have been to both and we know better.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Stephen Fox]

I think this board can help. He is a CN Grad and done some work at Princeton. He deserves to be fastracked into a CBF pulpit that pays a decent living wage; and or some dually aligned situation ready to be led further toward the promised land.
Not exactly open to annual call, but I think he is open to a discussion of a triennial contract of some sort
I am not his agent. He certainly did not ask me to do this, but in good humor and some sincerity, don't be shy about being an advocate on his behalf; and no Ed we do not need a publicthird degree process on this board cause we all know nonewould pass the Ed P test.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Stephen Fox]

but maybe it didn't translate that way; a tease, not a taunt.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5313/53/

[Stephen Fox]

http://sbcvoices.com/the-struggle-of-women-in-the-sbc/

Does the Plodder pull back from Brandon SMith's JULY 20 conclusions on WMU and Women; Rankin's "rebuke"?

[Stephen Fox]

The letter is out there