From the CBF Coordinating Council ...

[Bruce Gourley]

Here is a report from the most recent CBF Coordinating Council (held this past week).

[Ed Pettibone]

Here is a report from the most recent CBF Coordinating Council (held this past week).

Ed: Thanks Bruce, for posting that report. It is packed with information and ideas well worth discussion here.

[David Flick]

Here is a report from the most recent CBF Coordinating Council (held this past week).

I echo Ed's sentiments. It's hard to believe that the CBF is preparing to celebrate 20 years. Seems like it was only yesterday when the "Gatlinburg Gang" met...

Thanks for posting the link...

[Dave Roberts]

CBF's financial struggles parallel those of the SBC (cf. GCRTF and CP promotion). The difference is that CBF doesn't have endowment funds to scotch against a recession. The most interesting development in all of this is that there are more younger faces in the CBF journey and fewer of the old heads. I see a lot of focus on the future, and Cecil Sherman is probably right in that the moderate Baptist movement is awaiting the rising of its next great leader. As Dan Vestal nears retirement, the eyes of the groups are scanning to see who will rise to take the reins for the next generation.

[Ed Pettibone]

Here is a report from the most recent CBF Coordinating Council (held this past week).

I echo Ed's sentiments. It's hard to believe that the CBF is preparing to celebrate 20 years. Seems like it was only yesterday when the "Gatlinburg Gang" met...

Thanks for posting the link...

Ed: David, While some of the 17 members of the "Gatlinburg Gang" latter became leaders in CBF, their 1979 experience was not the inception of CBF, that did not come until 1991. Hence 2011 as the twenty year anniversary . I think it could be said that the founding of the Baptist Alliance came which came first was more of an outgroth of the Gatlinburg Gang meetings.

For more on the Gatlinburg Gang see Perry http://books.google.com/books?id=rCd6Yn ... ng&f=false

[David Flick]

Here is a report from the most recent CBF Coordinating Council (held this past week).

I echo Ed's sentiments. It's hard to believe that the CBF is preparing to celebrate 20 years. Seems like it was only yesterday when the "Gatlinburg Gang" met...

Thanks for posting the link...

Ed: David, While some of the 17 members of the "Gatlinburg Gang" latter became leaders in CBF, their 1979 experience was not the inception of CBF, that did not come until 1991. Hence 2011 as the twenty year anniversary . I think it could be said that the founding of the Baptist Alliance came which came first was more of an outgroth of the Gatlinburg Gang meetings.

For more on the Gatlinburg Gang see Perry http://books.google.com/books?id=rCd6Yn ... ng&f=false

Thanks for the link, Ed. I need to get that book. It's still difficult for me to comprehend that the CBF is coming up on two decades of existence... Although I am unable to identify all the 17 who comprised the "Gatlinburg Gang," I know of a couple of Oklahomans who attended that first convocation. They were Dr. Lavon Brown, pastor of FBC in Norman and Dr. Gene Garrison, pastor of the FBC in Oklahoma City. Below is paragraph lifted fron the history of the CBFO. It was written by Dr. Dan Hobbs (no relation to Herschel), who is the CBFO historian and a retired professor of history at the University of Oklahoma.

What caused the Cooperating Baptist Fellowship of Oklahoma to create a moderate state organization in February of 1992? It was not a hasty or rash decision. Beginning in 1979, when Adrian Rogers was elected president of the Southern Baptist Convention, Baptist life began to change drastically. A well-organized takeover group, led by Texas Appeals Court judge Paul Pressler of Houston and Paige Patterson, president of Criswell Center for Biblical Studies in Dallas, captured the presidency of the SBC and changed the rules to ensure that only conservatives would be appointed to committees, boards, and agencies of the convention.Within a decade, the takeover group was in complete charge of all the denominational machinery. Moderates were outvoted in every presidential election after 1979—narrowly at first, then decisively—and were left ultimately without any role in the convention except to help pay the bills. Given the passive nature of moderates in Baptist life, even being left out of the policy-making function in the SBC would not have caused them to defect and begin a new work in opposition to the conservatives. However, when the takeover faction began to effect radical changes in Baptist theology and doctrine during the decade of the 1980s, moderate leaders such as Cecil Sherman, pastor of First Baptist Church, Asheville, North Carolina, began to sound the alarm and urge the necessity of organizing against the SBC leadership. Sherman made the first move in September of 1980, when he convened a meeting of 17 Baptist pastors at Gatlinburg, Tennessee, to discuss the takeover and to help counter the conservative direction of the convention. That group, known subsequently as the "Gatlinburg Gang," formed the nucleus of what became the "Moderate Movement" in the Southern Baptist Convention. Lavonn Brown, pastor of First Baptist Church in Norman, Oklahoma, was one of those attending the moderate convocation at Gatlinburg, Tennessee. He was at the forefront of the loyal moderate opposition in Oklahoma, along with Gene Garrison, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Oklahoma City. Brown served on the Coordinating Council of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship’s national body from its beginning in 1991, and subsequently led the Fellowship as Moderator in 1997. During much of the decade of the 1980s, Gene Garrison was presiding officer of the SBC Forum, organized by moderates as an alternative to the conservative SBC Pastor’s Conference held each year just before the annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention. The Forum was held from 1984 through 1990, when leaders of the moderate movement in the SBC abandoned their efforts to counter the "Conservative Resurgence" which took over the Convention in 1979. Source...

Not only is Lavon Brown a personal friend of mine, he's one of my all time top heroes in Oklahoma Baptist life.

[Chris]

...the moderate Baptist movement is awaiting the rising of its next great leader....the eyes of the groups are scanning to see who will rise to take the reins for the next generation.

Wade Burleson, maybe? If he hasn't figured out that he is a Moderate, he will, any minute now!

[Dave Roberts]

For leaders, I hope we look to some of those who are building successful state organizations as potential leaders.

[Ed Pettibone]

For leaders, I hope we look to some of those who are building successful state organizations as potential leaders.

Ed: And Dave, how do you define "building successful state organizations"? Forgive me I am probably not hearing your intent but that seems to smack somewhat of what Sandy and others have called SBC Lite.

I have deleted a half dozen paragraphs in which I attempted to explain what I am saying above. I will simply await your reply.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Cecil Sherman brought together the "Gatlinburg Gang." See his recent autobiography. I don't know all of the names but Sherman was not a participant in the Southern Baptist Alliance. In fact, Sherman butted heads with Alliance leaders on at least a few occasions in those early years.

[Mark]

I don't know all of the names but Sherman was not a participant in the Southern Baptist Alliance. In fact, Sherman butted heads with Alliance leaders on at least a few occasions in those early years.

That's not an entirely accurate picture, BDiddy. On the contrary, Cecil was an early and enthusiastic member of the Southern Baptist Alliance, and even wrote a chapter for the first (and only?) book the SBA ever published, entitled Being Baptist Means Freedom - still one of my favorites, a brief paperback, but nonetheless a classic. Cecil's chapter, as I recall, was entitled something like "The Freedom to Individually Interpret the Bible." Later on, Cecil Sherman did indeed have a high profile, public disagreement or two with Stan Hastey and perhaps a few others behind the scenes. He has described these folks as "Fundamentalists of the Left."

As to the Gatlinburg Gang, Cecil writes in his autobiography that over the years, more than one person has claimed to have been present at that original meeting when they actually weren't there.

[Dave Roberts]

For leaders, I hope we look to some of those who are building successful state organizations as potential leaders.

Ed: And Dave, how do you define "building successful state organizations"? Forgive me I am probably not hearing your intent but that seems to smack somewhat of what Sandy and others have called SBC Lite.

I have deleted a half dozen paragraphs in which I attempted to explain what I am saying above. I will simply await your reply.

CBF has several very successful state organizations (and some not so successful). Some of those who lead on the state level certainly haver proven track records at leading among CBF churches. When there is a time to seek new leadership, I hope those will get a consideration when that time comes. I especially think of Larry Hovis in NC and Rob Fox in VA among others.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I probably should tweak my statement, Mark. This would be more accurate:

"..Sherman was not a leader in the Southern Baptist Alliance"

Sherman did contribute a chapter to that book but he was not a part of the team that crafted that organization's Covenant. In my research of the Alliance, I don't recall seeing Sherman's name mentioned in those very early years. Sherman mentions the Southern Baptist Alliance/Alliance of Baptists only a handful of times in his autobiography.

That Sherman was not a leader in the Alliance movement seems to be supported by p. 240 where he noted that in 1987, "when the Alliance of Baptists was born, I was sympathetic and joined."

Also, this tidbit from his autobiography was revealing:

"In summer 1986, there was a meeting of Moderates at Mercer University in Macon, Georgia. We had lost the content for president of the SBC in Atlanta in June. At that Macon meeting, one part of the group said they did not want to continue to do politics. They wanted to create another organization. The SBC could go its way; they were pulling back. That group formed the Southern Baptist Alliance in February 1987 (now called the Alliance of Baptists)...The effect of this action was that several hundred people pulled out of the Moderate political effort after 1986. This decision reduced the already slim chances of Moderates to win back the SBC.

While Sherman was once "sympathetic" to the Alliance and "joined" the Alliance, it does not seem that he identified with the Alliance. If I was an enthusiastic supporter of the Alliance in the pre-CBF days, I wouldn't describe the organization in my autobiography as "THAT GROUP" even if I later moved on to support a different group.

Another anecdote or two in the autobiography reveals that key leaders in the Alliance (those who stuck by the Alliance even after the CBF was formed) never really completely trusted Sherman and his stands on their "causes" (ecumenism, women-in-ministry). Safe to say, Sherman was more conservative than SBA/AoB leaders.

You are right though, the public butting of heads did come later - similar to the butting of heads between Foy Valentine and various Southern Baptist progressives of an earlier era. However, the autobiography seems to indicate that there was tension between Sherman and some Alliance folks even in those early years.

Again, I don't think Ed was correct to state that "the founding of the Baptist Alliance whihc came first was more of an outgrowth of the Gatlinburg Gang meetings."

Sherman himself notes that the "Moderate movement" which he describes as being birthed at Gatlinburg ultimately "morphed into the CBF." Sherman's legacy is tied to the meetings in Gatlinburg. I'm not sure if there are any leaders integral to the progressive Alliance movement which are also tied to the meetings in Gatlinburg.

[Mark]

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with your overall assessment.

Just one more point, when you said:

If I was an enthusiastic supporter of the Alliance in the pre-CBF days, I wouldn't describe the organization in my autobiography as "THAT GROUP" even if I later moved on to support a different group...

Without speaking for him, I think it's safe to say Cecil doesn't feel the same way about the Alliance now as he once did. He was an enthusiastic supporter (if not actual leader) at the beginning, because - and he was my pastor for a couple of years, you'll recall - I heard it from his own mouth.

No doubt Cecil didn't agree with the Alliance becoming increasingly aligned with the pro-gay rights movement carte blanche. They began to be viewed, perhaps unfairly at times, as a single-issue organization, with some of their board members as intolerant of diversity as their counterpart, rightwing Fundamentalists. I still respect The Alliance of Baptists in many ways, but long ago many of us began to feel increasingly uncomfortable with the direction they were taking as an advocacy group. I have felt that way when other groups have seemingly became "one-issue focused" (at best) or tunnel-visioned (at worst).

[David Flick]

I don't know all of the names but Sherman was not a participant in the Southern Baptist Alliance. In fact, Sherman butted heads with Alliance leaders on at least a few occasions in those early years.

That's not an entirely accurate picture, BDiddy. On the contrary, Cecil was an early and enthusiastic member of the Southern Baptist Alliance, and even wrote a chapter for the first (and only?) book the SBA ever published, entitled Being Baptist Means Freedom - still one of my favorites, a brief paperback, but nonetheless a classic. Cecil's chapter, as I recall, was entitled something like "The Freedom to Individually Interpret the Bible." 1Later on, Cecil Sherman did indeed have a high profile, public disagreement or two with Stan Hastey and perhaps a few others behind the scenes. He has described these folks as "Fundamentalists of the Left."

2As to the Gatlinburg Gang, Cecil writes in his autobiography that over the years, more than one person has claimed to have been present at that original meeting when they actually weren't there.

1) Mark, Stan Hastey's father, Ervin, was for several years pastor of my wife's home church, FBC of Leedey, OK, which is 13 from where I grew up. Stan's mother and my mother were very good friends, both being actively involved in WMU on the associational level. For many years, Mother was Beckham-Mills Association's WMU president. The Hasteys were in our home many times. Stan is three or four years younger than I am and although I didn't know well, I remember some of the times when his family visited in our home. Mother & Dad helped establish the Indian Baptist Church in Hammon during the time Bro Hastey was pastoring the Leedey church. He was strongly supportive of the new work. Bro Hastey, I believe, went from Leedey FBC to the to be a missionary in Mexico. This probably has nothing to do with price of tea in China, but I thought I'd throw it in just for kicks...

2) My curiosity about the first meeting of the Gatlinburg Gang has been piqued. Can you think of a location where one might find a list of those who attended that first meeting?

[Mark]

My curiosity about the first meeting of the Gatlinburg Gang has been piqued. Can you think of a location where one might find a list of those who attended that first meeting?...

I think a list of the original GG is listed in Cecil Sherman's autobiography, a copy of which I own. I'll try to locate it and post the names by tomorrow night.

[Ed Pettibone]

Thanks for the clarification. I agree with your overall assessment.

Just one more point, when you said:

If I was an enthusiastic supporter of the Alliance in the pre-CBF days, I wouldn't describe the organization in my autobiography as "THAT GROUP" even if I later moved on to support a different group...

Without speaking for him, I think it's safe to say Cecil doesn't feel the same way about the Alliance now as he once did. He was an enthusiastic supporter (if not actual leader) at the beginning, because - and he was my pastor for a couple of years, you'll recall - I heard it from his own mouth.

No doubt Cecil didn't agree with the Alliance becoming increasingly aligned with the pro-gay rights movement carte blanche. They began to be viewed, perhaps unfairly at times, as a single-issue organization, with some of their board members as intolerant of diversity as their counterpart, rightwing Fundamentalists. I still respect The Alliance of Baptists in many ways, but long ago many of us began to feel increasingly uncomfortable with the direction they were taking as an advocacy group. I have felt that way when other groups have seemingly became "one-issue focused" (at best) or tunnel-visioned (at worst).

Ed: Mark, I think you are right on ! In about 1987 I joined a church in Florida that was affiliated with the Alliance and it seems to me that it was was more broad based then. The more welcoming and affirming the Alliance became the more discord it created in that church, therefore most of that congregation was ready for a change when CBF came into being. Also the Alliance seemed to some of us to be more anti SBC while we where primarily anti the takeover movement (Pressler, Patterson; et al ). I still have friends who are active in the Alliance and have little or nothing to do with CBF, while other friends participate in both. The church mentioned above eventually ceased its formal support of the Alliance in favor of CBF, but some of their members continued to contribute to both Alliance and CBF causes financially. The Church has since left the SBC and list the ABC-USA as one of their affiliations.

And Mark, while I am here let me commend you as one of the better historians hereabouts of modern Baptist happenings, involving baptist in the south. Aaron W. has read a good deal of Baptist history but he is a bit short on living it. Also, I too have Cecil's book somewhere, but it must be in one of the boxes we have yet to unpack. Is the Title "By my own Reckoning" or is that a subtitle? It has been a while since I started packing.

Later, 1:20 A.M. Found it on one of the built in bookcases here in the house. I am not used to searching that spot as of yet, unpacked, does not mean organized.

On Pages 151-2 & 153 Cecil list the 16 pastors out of 25 that he had invited to Gatlinburg who showed up. Carl Bates, Lavonne Brown, Frank Campbell, Kenneth Chafin, Henry Crouch, Earl Davis, Vernon Davis, Clde Fant, Welton Gaddy, T.L.McSwain, Bill O'Conner, Ed Perry, Carman Sharp, Bill Sherman, Jim Slaton, Ches Smith. The writer also gives the title and of each of these men and a brief comment about each of them. The Date was Sept 25th 1980. I wish I had seen this list before I met at least 5 of these Gentlemen in various settings. On the other hand maybe I am glad I had not, because, as it is I came to appreciate them due to our informal interaction, not that they where recommended by some one else.

[Mark]

And Mark, while I am here let me commend you as one of the better historians hereabouts of modern Baptist happenings, involving baptist in the south. Aaron W. has read a good deal of Baptist history but he is a bit short on living it...

Thanks, Ed. I appreciate the prop, but can't go along with dissin' my friend BDiddy. He's lots smarter than I am, brings tons of youthful vigor to the table (no reference to his girth intended, or mine ), and from all indications is a promising, upcoming Baptist historian in his own right. Old, young, and median folks all bring needed perspectives to the table.

Thanks also for the list of Gatlinburg members. Now I won't have to post it. For years I thought Ralph Langley was among that group, but when Cecil's book was released I realized Ralph must have come on board later.

[Mark]

Mark, Stan Hastey's father, Ervin, was for several years pastor of my wife's home church, FBC of Leedey, OK, which is 13 from where I grew up. Stan's mother and my mother were very good friends, both being actively involved in WMU on the associational level. For many years, Mother was Beckham-Mills Association's WMU president. The Hasteys were in our home many times. Stan is three or four years younger than I am and although I didn't know well, I remember some of the times when his family visited in our home. Mother & Dad helped establish the Indian Baptist Church in Hammon during the time Bro Hastey was pastoring the Leedey church. He was strongly supportive of the new work. Bro Hastey, I believe, went from Leedey FBC to the to be a missionary in Mexico. This probably has nothing to do with price of tea in China, but I thought I'd throw it in just for kicks...

And I'm glad you did. I had forgotten that connection. I still have great admiration for Stan Hastey, especially his courage, even when I disagree with him. That's why it was painful to watch when he and Cecil had their semi-public dispute. Hopefully they're cool with each other by now.