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I would totally agree with the BDW analysis.

It shows why the respect and honoring of the SBC is on a decline in the general public.

God does not bless a mess and that is all we have had since before 1979 among Baptists. I am not putting it on an persoanalized NC liscense tag. The quieter I am over my affiliations, the more Christian I can be!

People coming to any church are looking for love and encouragement to get through another week. When that church becomes a constant battlefield, they quickly look elsewhere for spiritual growth---unless they are Manic-Depressive!

Nice photo, Timothy. You look very extinguished.

If you have a beard, do you have a tat to be even more "cool dude preacher?"

LIke the new pic. Can't reduce mine enough to post it---have cowboy hat to add to the effect!

Mostly in Response to Sandy and BDW; the SBC does what a spiderpig does if some of you remember the ditty from the Cable Cartoon show.

I think Bryant Wrightmay be more the poster child of thenew SBC than Frank Page. Wright has more "style" more urbane than Page. SBC is turning into a hybrid of Campus Crusade and FCA. Hip and light; no offense to FCA in particular.

Bryant Wright will continue to be proud of his products who go to SOCON Schools, UGA and Bama, even Auburn. What they don't talk about in church don't hurt him. He is in not too big a hurry seems to me to get into to the Nelson Price imbroglio at Shorter; nor to have a conversation with Marilynne Robinson about Calvinism.

Jerry Vines is saying some things;most likely not much deeper than his aside to Adrian Rogers in the snack shop at NOBTS in the 60's when Carlyle Marney came on campus.

To that extent SBC rank and file is like the kenotics in the emerging Orthodox Church in Russia in the 1500's. Just give em some icons and have some congregational singing--don't matter what the words are if ever so often one of em is Jesus--keep the TV and Fox News and Roll On.

Ed: So Sandy, where are you reading and who is writing it. And why are you so interested in what the "Mainlne"
denominations are doing since you hold them in such disdain?

Neither have I ever been a member of a liberal mainline Protestant church. We are now in our 5th local congregation of the ABC-USA since 1998. two years in one, 6 months in another, one and a half in another, six years in 2 church parish and now nearly two and a half years in the church where we are now. And yes the ABC-USA does have some rather liberal churches but the denomination as a whole is not liberal.

In that time we have attended 3 of the denominations biennial national meetings. In Richmond Va, Denver Colorado and Washington DC. the two of us have always gotten by on under $150.00 a day. The hotels have had a decent to very good breakfast . We stay out a ways and use public transportation.(Richmond was an exception we drove to and from the motel and paid $ 5.00 to park.) We do lunch in the local places near by. Usually have dinner at a national chain. True there are more clergy than laity but not by a lot. There are worship services, Bible studies, sessions to discuss proposed business, and business meetings where the decisions are made. And of course there are the resource centers with a variety of vendors selling every thing from Clergy vestments to fiberglass Baptismal units, insurance plans, Suits, Dresses and Ladies Hats that would make Dorthy Patterson envious, and the Colleges & Universities and Seminaries promoting their services. No Golf outings.

Now the Mercer Preaching Consultation on St Simmons Island in Ga. does offer a free afternoon, and golf is available. The meeting are at the King & Prince Hotel which is quite pricy but we have always stayed at one of the chain motels. usually on the island but once on the mainland some 9 mile away. Parking is free at the K&P to all attending the meeting. We sometimes have lunch at the Waffle House or Burger King or one of the local restaurants. We do attend the major banquet (great food) living up to the King and Price Name. This meeting is a great opportunity to hear outstanding preaching in a variety of styles.

Sandy,

I'll let you have your own definition of fundamentalism.

I realize you like to poo-poo on scholars and experts, so this statement will hold no weight for you (your loss): but the overwhelming majority of scholars of Protestant fundamentalism don't hold to your strict, narrow definition that requires separatism.

So, your statement that this isn't fundamentalism means little. I know even historians and theologians in the SBC who will tell you that there are indeed many fundamentalists in Southern Baptist life. Even their definition of fundamentalism is not nearly as rigid and strict as yours.

When Jerry Falwell decided to come out of his shell and found the Moral Majority in 1979, he didn't just up and cease being a fundamentalist. Even the concept of "separatism" is extremely complex with varying definitions of what separatism requires and entails.

Since you like to throw out numbers. I'll throw out this chart for everyone. Take what you will away from em.

By the way, one need not agree that the Southern Baptists are just a bunch of "fighting fundamentalists" to agree with my statement.

I said that this is fundamentalism at its finest. As I see it, there is only one aggressor here. There's one-side that's starting a holy war with the other. So, I'm not charging the Calvinists with being fundamentalists. I'm charging these "Tradtionalists" with fundamentalism. And if you look at the list of signatories, it's a Who's Who list of the "Conservative Resurgence."

And from what I hear, it is Jerry Vines - front and center - who is pushing this thing.

It would be interesting to put up a chart of the percentage of US population that is part of left wing Protestantism, and how that has fallen off since liberal theology has taken hold. But of course, that doesn't help you make your point.

"Fundamentalist" can be a broad term, even with application outside the realm of Christian denominationalism. I would certainly apply it to the little group of disgruntled Baptists who got their feelings hurt when the denomination got tired of their elitist control and attempts at diluting the gospel and elected new leadership. There's some frowning faces and scowling expressions among them that would make Falwell look like a peacemaker.

Jerry Falwell built his church by bussing and bashing any other church in his town as not being "spiritual enough."

He also had a gift for conning 4 asphault contractors to "give 1/4 of the parking lot paving since 3 had already agreed to do it." When they all happened to be there the same day, they found out the same "stuff" had been told each one---starting with the first one!

Somehow God spoke to Jerry in ways he didn't to others. When the SBC became so like him he could join---it was obvious it was not the SBC theology of old which spoke to him!!!!

I am always suspicious when "God speaks" to any preacher and then he "speaks that same word" to the congregation.
Is it God---or the preacher pretending to be God????

Sandy, you've obviously confused me with someone else. I'd support Vines and others who would pull the SBC away from the Calvinist brink if I were a Southern Baptist. I see Calvinism of this stripe as a dangerous false doctrine that was not part of the long term SBC viewpoint. So I've not been critical of the approach other than suggesting that it just won't work because Baptist have no overarching authority to make things stick. It isn't the approach that is the problem, it is Baptist polity that is the problem.

For many mainline denominations decisions are made at the national or regional level. The PCUSA, UMC and other do have "official" positions. Baptists really can't have "official" positions on much of anything. And yes, the "official" position does "resolve" the issue until such a time as a different "official" position is taken. And just like Baptist churches do at the local church level, majority rules. So you may think it is some virtue for each church to have a majority vote on each issue other Christians don't.

For Baptists no issue can be "resolved" because no one has to agree on anything to be a Baptist. You can hold that up as a virtue if you like Sandy. But I don't. I see it as making individualism and personal autonomy an idol.

Timothy---what you are saying is absolutely accurate!

Now we do have a move in NC to oust churches ministering to homosexuals and calling lady pastors. It is a new Financial Policy which can return funds to that church and, thereby, exclude them from NC mission giving and participation in voting at the anual meeting.

The churches having received such treatment have just been freed of criticism and move to relationships they enjoy. My last church, Lakeside in Rocky Mount, had been on the criticism list for accepting members without requiring they be immersed. When the ordaination of women became another criticism point and they have ordained women deacons, the church voted to leave the NCBSC. They are CBF, but still allow any member wanting to direct their gift to the SBC or NCBSC that priviledge. They have taken Baptist off their sign and enjoy great respect in their town.

There have been many scholars who have studied fundamentalism up-close-and-personal. Nancy Ammerman was an outsider who studied fundamentalism extensively from the inside. Randall Balmer was an evangelical who was brought into the political fundamentalist fold. There are many more examples.

Your eagerness to dismiss the work of actual experts in a particular field is quite telling.

There are fundamentalists within the SBC. There are fundamentalists in leadership positions in the SBC who have influence. This is a fact that even actual Southern Baptists themselves will concede.

Who said fundamentalists are without education? I'm not sure why you are citing the terminal degrees of SBC leaders (funny how education and degrees matters to you when its helpful for your argument).

Many fundamentalist leaders are well-educated. No doubt about that. Level of education does matter from a sociological perspective. You can look at Ammerman and Wuthnow - who names that get respect from the right and left (but probably not you).