SBC Calvinism New Statement

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Definitions evolve because movements evolve. And moderate Southern Baptists certainly aren't the only ones to have offered a definition of fundamentalism. Even George Marsden - who is as evangelical as the come, lived his life as the most notable evangelical historian in the US, mentor to other evangelical historians - is comfortable with the term fundamentalist to describe many in the SBC. He adds an "ic" to the end - fundamentalistic - because he still puts a great amount of emphasis on separatism as a defining characteristic of a fundamentalist (no "ic").

Also, I didn't say that a majority of Southern Baptists are actual fundamentalists. I think a thorough survey of actual Southern Baptists would reveal a wide range of diversity including quite a bit of "heresy" with regard to who's saved and who isn't. I say that because I don't think Southern Baptists would prove to be that distinguishable from other studies of white evangelicals.

I do think, however, think there are quite a few fundamentalists in leadership roles at all levels of the SBC. Jerry Vines and Paige Patterson fit that definition.

Again, are we really arguing that Jerry Falwell stopped being a fundamentalist when he founded the Moral Majority as a response to government intrusion in its effort to regulate private Christian schools like Bob Jones and other institutions over their racially discriminatory policies?

Also, doesn't the relationship between ABA and SBTC just prove my point about movements evolving? Would the ABA have considered a fraternal relationship with SBTC just three decades ago, back when Falwell was still in his separatist shell? Does the fact that Bob Jones U. has involved itself in public life via a stopping ground for Bush/McCain in 2000 signal that Bob Jones has ceased being fundamentalist? No, I simply think that "separatism" has ceased to be dominant characteristic of fundamentalists.

That's not to say that all or most or a majority of Southern Baptists are fundamentalists. But there is felt the strong influence of fundamentalism in the SBC. Few honest informed observers familiar with fundamentalism are going to deny that.

[Gene Scarborough]

My experience and observation of those I would put in the Fundamentalist category is:

Arrogant
Non-cooperative
Judgemental
Sepatist

To name the basics. I grew up in Atlanta. Served near Greenville, SC, where Bob Jones requested a permit for machine guns for their gate guards in the 70's. Jerry Falwell did his thing with the Moral Majority. Paige Patterson directed the Conservative Resurgence which by hook or crook took over the SBC.

It is "my way of the highway" with fundamentalists and they always have a king cheese who rules for a while---until another one comes along to displace the previous one. It is constant turmoil and struggle for supremacy. I can do without it!!!

[Tim Bonney]

Hey, you might as well have my definition of fundamentalism. This and $4 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

The major factor is an over literalistic interpretation of scripture particularly following theories of inspiration such as inerrancy and verbal plenary inspiration. Those two ideas lead to most of the other fundamentalist beliefs. I also see inclusion of men and women in church leadership as a line. Anyone who does not support women as pastors in the 21st century in my view is a fundamentalist at least in the area of gender.

[Gene Scarborough]

I see real validity in your observations.

H.L. Menkin described them as "my contemporary ancestors!"

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Everybody tries to put on their best face. There is no "best face" when your use power politics to destroy a SBC which functioned well pre-1979.

The process may be excused by some, but the general public knows when power and control are the only goal.

[Sandy]

I don't recall that the term "fundamentalist" was defined by "scholars and experts" back in 1979 when it was used as a means of deriding the leadership of the Conservative Resurgence and a "takeover" (with the implication of being hostile) provided somewhat of a plausible explanation for the moderates, or at least, it soothed the pain as the gradual realization that it was they, and not the conservative resurgence, who were way out of step with the mainstream of grassroots Southern Baptists. In 1978, when they were still in control, the moderate leadership of the convention would not have used the term to describe the churches of the convention. They dragged the term out to apply to the resurgence leaders, in what appeared to be an attempt to separate them from the rest of the SBC and to convince the rank and file to reject the leadership shift. The definition formed by "scholars and experts" now applied to the SBC is a post-resurgence definition designed to fit the earlier accusation of "fundamentalist takeover." It is such an overused term that it really has little effect or meaning.

The acceptance of female clergy is most definitely a distinction between the SBC's current leadership, and the remaining supporters of its former leadership. But in 1978, prior to the Resurgence, only a few churches on the very left fringe of the denomination would have ordained women to the ministry, or called them to a pastorate. Even today, in spite of lots of talk, opportunities among the moderate Baptists for ordained females are extremely limited, and some noted moderate congregations have passed up the opportunity to call a woman to the pulpit. Are they fundamentalists, too?

The term belongs to those who have, by practice, defined it. That excludes most evangelicals and most Southern Baptists.

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Golden Spur material, in my view!

It gives the stats that answer the question: "Why is America so corrupt these days?"

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy I don't think having women clergy effects church growth one way or another. Methodists have had women clergy long enough that half of the pastors at our retirement recognition this year were women. While it is still a hot button issue for Baptists and some others it hasn't been even an issue for Methodists and other mainliners for a long time. I know it is hard to believe in a Baptist culture but most mainliners give no more thought to their pastor being a man or woman than they do to the pastors hair color. People are a lot more concerned with how you work as a pastor than your gender. It is irrelevant. Making it an issue is what makes it an issue.

I know I'm very impressed with the Rector of our local Episcopal parish here in Cedar Falls. I attend her church sometimes when I'm on vacation. She has a packed church, she is a great preacher, and her worship leadership is excellent. And I can always guarantee I'll get communion, another plus. My current and former DS are both women clergy. It just isn't an issue in the mainline.

However, when I was in Des Moines I had at least one couple transfer to my church from another congregation (Evangelical Free) that wasn't supportive of women when they found out their daughter was being taught subordinationist theology. That was enough for them to move to an ABC congregation where they knew we supported women in leadership roles. At that time our Associate Pastor was a woman and she now pastors her own church in Indiana and I'm willing to bet she is one of the best ABC pastors in the state. She is just that good.

Frankly you all would benefit from letting talented women lead churches. It is your loss!

[William Thornton]

[Stephen Fox]

Famous exchange 1990 at a D.C. event of the BJCPA. Gus Niebuhr and Sam Donaldson are on panel.
The Bircher Albert Lee Smith who Jesse Helms folks and Pressler had gotten on the trustee board of the BJC goes to a microphone.

He asks Gus Nieuhr, Richard's Grandson--then working as rel writer for NY Times, maybe WSJ--to call SBC fundamentalists; call them conservatives.

Niebuhr replied that would do injustice to the English Language and the definition of words.

All the Presidents of the SBC since the takeover with the possible exception of Jim Henry are fundamentalists, and Henry is too close to call.

It is what it is. Know way your creed is First 11 chapters of Genesis are Science and History and Not be a Fundamentalist.

It is what it is.

I used to take issue some with my Dad sayin it was a reach to call the takeover leaders Norrisites. But they were and they are. Look at Jerry Vines sermon in St. Louis 1987. He ought to own what he is, and to say otherwise is to beg the question.

[Stephen Fox]

But on some Sundays I might feel at home listening to his sermon that I would say, Amy Butler. But I know in my heart and moreso in my Head Amy and Fleming Rutledge have a sounder revelation than Dr. Thornton, though I have come to have great affection for his grace and charity toward me on key occasions in the fellowship on this board.
Likewise with Adrian Rogers son, David, and Harry Dent's daughter, Ginny Brant.

They are responsible for the Light given them and in many ways they have honored their pilgrimage with more integrity than I have done with the best light Furman shone on me.
But that doesn't make them less fundamentalists, or cloudy in their articulation of what they are and what they have upbraided in the last 30 years.
I hope yet, Ginny and David will be on panel, two days if that's what it takes with Randall Balmer and Nathan Hatch; cause as yet still seems folks like Sandy don't quite get it; and folks like Gene Scarborough, well who would want to be in the same congregation with him.

[Stephen Fox]

[Sandy]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Stephen Fox]

About 5 million attend church routinely, and of them about two million if that know a hat from a Hole in the Ground; and you'd have to shake em good to find 25,000 who have read Giberson and Stephens, and only about ten who have read Evolving In Monkeytown.

But a lot of em have read the 11th Chapter of Hebrews, even Nancy Ammerman gave em that much, and they do have a sense of the Exaltation of the Individual when they embrace their community of faith; so what do you do with them.

How do you wean them off Fox News, and isn't it post George Wallace approval rating of Baptist Deacons in the 60's gettin about time for a more sophisticated understanding of the Kingdom of God; or does the dance continue with the person who brought em to the Ball.

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]