SBC Calvinism New Statement

[William Thornton]

Let me amend my earlier comment to say that LifeWay Research has data that shows little difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists in annual baptism rates. LifeWay REsearch has changed some of their website but here is a link to a powerpoint on the study:

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

William you can call historic experience an old saw if you like. But if these folks really mean what they say they mean then they don't believe in evangelism. They believe in identifying the elect.

R

[Dave Roberts]

Hampton Baptist Church that I am privileged to serve as interim may not be the hotbed of evangelism, but that in many ways reflects the transition from being a neighborhood church to being a regional church with members spread across an area fifteen miles across in one direction and twenty in the other axis. We have been blessed to host a Vietnamese language congregation for several years (meeting in our building with financial support. I had the opportunity to attend their baptismal service three weeks ago. Our language congregation is reaching well into the third generation of those who came to this country at the fall of South Vietnam.

My model for missions was First Baptist in Fayetteville, NC. They had, across their first 150 years, birthed 15 congregations, some now larger than they. The church I served was their first sponsored congregation in 1859. That strategy of starting a church each decade seems far more effective than just growing a mega or satellite centers.

[William Thornton]

[John Sneed]

His name, in French, was Jean Cauvin. John Calvin is what we call him in English.

I have refrained from replying on this topic, since I am in the ARBCA, I have no dog in this hunt anymore. But since I am writing now, I will just say this document is a spit in the face of Convention Calvinists and it is holding the door open to invite them to leave. There is no win in this for anybody. That is my take as an ex-SBCer.

[Dave Roberts]

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

Dave's point is very important. It takes time for theology to move down from the pulit into the congregation. But eventually what is taught in the pulpit will effect what is believed in the pew. And if we don't believe that then we aren't saying much about the effectiveness of pastoral teaching and preaching.

If (and I know this is an if) over time more and more Calvinist pastors are produced from seminaries funded by the SBC then over time more and more congregations will lean futher into Calvinism. Historically Baptists denominations that have fallen into full going Calvinism have not done well in evangelism. Recent data is likely too recent to tell what the long term effects will be. But I don't have any knowledge of strongly Calvinist denominations growing. Maybe you know of such William? The only denomination I can think of that is Reformed and is growing is the RCA. But the RCA, to the best of my knowledge, is modified Calvinist and not 5-point Calvinist.

[William Thornton]

Timothy and Dave: Calvinist pastors in the SBC are as evangelistic or moreso than 'normal' pastors. You can make all the 'a-generation-down-the-road' predictions that you want. And Timothy I don't know of any large denominations that are growing.

The problem that generated the SBC was not that the New Calvinists weren't baptizing enough people, although that accusation is a tiresome one.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: When Tim B. says "But the RCA, to the best of my knowledge, is modified Calvinist and not 5-point Calvinist." I have to add that the last I read any thing by Ascol (3 or 4 years ago) the Founders conference was still saying if you are not a 5 pointer you are no Calvinist.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

The old stereotypes (which do have quit a bit of historical justification) about Calvinism in the world of American evangelicalism just aren't true anymore, as William has tried to point out.

Maybe one can argue that Calvinists don't take their Calvinism to its logical conclusion in terms of application. Feel free to argue that.

But we can't deny that Calvinism is A) on the rise and has been for a number of years now and B) there are MORE THAN A FEW examples of 5-point Calvinist pastors, churches, networks that have experienced great growth in recent years. Thus, the reason for this SBC Calvinism statement. The growth of Calvinism threatens some, especially those in power.

Like it or not, Calvinists have been at the center of some of the most successful church planting efforts over the past 10-15 years. Mark Driscoll anyone?

And John Piper - as he's preparing to retire - is as Calvinist as they come and his ministry is not one of stagnation and anti-evangelism.

Perhaps the "New" in "New Calvinism" is appropriate as it is functionally different than the popular Calvinism of the 19th century.

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

I, like Tim, am interested in how a 5-point Calvinist can find theological justification for doing evangelism. Somehow I have missed a step in this. If grace is irrestible, then the elect will come to salvation whether or not Christ is even proclaimed. Otherwise, to a Calvinist, God is not sovereign.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Driscoll might be the exception or at least that's how he's portrayed since he's in Seattle.

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Enticing people to a bigger show has gone on since the dawn of Christianity.

Simon the Magician was such and it really has not changed.

The real problem is how people ask, "What can they do for me" rather than "what I can do for Christ" and "how this group will help me find the Joy of Salvation and share it in daily living among my family and friends."

Us humans really love looking at our belly buttons. You will please note how Christian Social Ministries has dropped off the screen of the NAMB in deference to church planting. If it becomes all about the new bigger numbers rather than the Joy of Salvation, we have missed the main ingredient of following Christ, in my view.

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

[Blake]