Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

[William Thornton]

I've observed that BP is likely to ignore some types of stories that are news yet are negative towards the SBC.

I am pleased that BP has decided to fully report the story about an evangelist arrested back in October for hiding a camera in a lady's bathroom whose home he was staying in.



The evangelist was said to have about 100 speaking engagements annually and was a featured speaker at some of LifeWay's student events.

No one is helped when this kind of stuff is kept quiet. Let the legal system work and Southern Baptists be aware.

[Dave Roberts]

It's a sad story for him and those who had confidence in him.

There is an error in the story. There is no Blue Mountain College in Virginia. There is a Bluefield College, but that story has an obvious error.

There is a Blue Mountain in Mississippi.

[Tim Bonney]

Among Baptists I think the ABC/USA is right on target by having a system of recognition for ordained clergy. The local church still ordains but usually at the recommendation of a Regional or Associational committee. The denomination can't remove ordination but if they remove recognition it sends a very clear message that the Pastor is now persona non grata in the ABC.

I know William has said the SBC will never do this kind of thing. Maybe not. But if enough bad publicity gets out or enough lawsuits happen the SBC may want to consider some system to protect the denomination.

There was a recent case of a UMC pastor being caught in misconduct in one of our southern conferences. And he almost immediately turned in his credentials rather than go through an ecclesiastical trial and potential defrocking.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Any sense of if, when or how many times ABC-USA has removed recognition from a minister for a sex-related reason?

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]

I don't see any change in the concept of local churches in the SBC relinquishing any of their autonomy. I suppose if GuideStone health insurance went through the roof churches could be bribed to give up autonomy and join a pool of other churches where insurance for their ministers was mandatory.

If the SBC had a clergy sex abuse database I'm not certain that this individual, if convicted or if he confesses, would be on it. It is not quite that the SBC's approach to these things is to 'let it ride' but that the 'SBC,' a familar but incorrect use of the term itself, did not ordain this man. Certain SBC entities and churches employed him and they have ended his employment contract. If I were in the church that ordained him, I would take steps to review that action.

There have been background noises about some sort of SBC clergy guild but these have never gotten off the ground.

[Tim Bonney]

William I don't believe it is a relinquishing of local church autonomy. Churches still decide whom they ordain. Churches still decide whom they will hire as pastor. Some churches choose to hire pastors who aren't recognized and have to live with the consequences, if any.

It is the clergy who have a different level of responsibility and accountability. As far as I have been aware, Baptist polity and doctrine doesn't necessarily teach pastoral autonomy. The pastor is responsible to the church they work for and if that church wants to participate in a national recognition system and call pastors based on that system that is in line with their autonomy. That is how American Baptists view it.

You might also want to note that American Baptists aren't the only Baptists in which churches ordain based on an associational ordination committee. The General Baptists do that as well.

How can Southern Baptists not want to create some kind of system to protect their churches and their members from such predators? Is local church autonomy the ultimate doctrine for Southern Baptists so that it even trumps the individual safety of church members from predators?

William I don't expect anything to change here. I'm just surprised that it doesn't appear that anyone is calling for some change.

[Gene Scarborough]

The system of accountability is biblical. Jesus clearly taught that "if anyone is caught in sin, go to him in private, if he does not change carry another who witnessed the same thing and confront him, if that does not work then take him before the church and cast him out."

The basic thrust was to give him room to repent.

When people are driven by perversion it is a serious matter and MUST be dealt with. For sure, God takes the harshest judgement toward those who are guilty of hipocracy.

No one gets away with it forever. What the SBC chuck-and-jive clearly says is "We don't really care."

[Tim Bonney]

Gene I don't know that it says that the SBC doesn't care. It seems to me more likely that no one is, or is willing, to think outside the box about their polity.

[Sandy]

The "polity" of Southern Baptist churches rests on the independence and autonomy of the local church, which is rooted in the apostolic order of the New Testament. The way churches choose the individuals who occupy church offices is left completely up to the local church, including how members are received into the congregation. Most churches accept what is often referred to as the 'recommendation" of other churches "of like faith and order" when it comes to receiving members and recognizing the calling of pastors and deacons. In the case of a pastor, his status of being "ordained" in another congregation is generally recognized through the affirmation of his call by the congregation. In Baptist life, particularly among Southern Baptists, independents, and several other brands, there is no separate status for "clergy" vs "laity." Ordination simply recognizes an individual's call to service as either an elder or a deacon, but the authority of the church is congregational, and the ordained officers have one vote and no additional authority beyond their leadership ability to cast a vision and influence. Once they leave their position of service, their "ordination" doesn't provide them any privileges or benefits until they are called to their next place of service.

The SBC, state conventions, associations and entities are not involved in ordination, nor do they recognize ordination, and have no authority in this area, nor do they have any way to enforce a change even if they approved one, since nothing they can do is binding on a local church. The only way that could change would be for each of the 45,000+ churches in cooperation with the SBC to agree to give up some of their authority in this area, and change their constitutions and bylaws accordingly. And I don't see anything close to "recognition" such as the ABC-USA has in place, ever gaining any acceptance in the SBC. So in the process of calling a pastor, or hiring someone for a job at an SBC related agency, due diligence would catch any previous problem like this, and would prevent the individual from winding up somewhere else. The agencies are very good about screening candidates. The churches, unfortunately, are not as good.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

It is amazing to me that the SBC/NCBSC can kick out a NC church for ministering to homosexuals and another for having a female pastor----but can't do anything about sexual preditors

LIke it or not, we are perceived as a bunch of pretenders over perversion matters---and deserve such derision

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---I can assure you someone in his church had a suspicion or observation worthy of noting. Most perverts are like bad children---they make one step and check / another and check again / keep going until someone breaks out a paddle or takes them to the back room!

Ed---I can't do a thing about situations where the majority of Baptists in NC are compliant. You deal with your state and I will deal with mine.

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

A moment of hilarity is badly needed in this time of abuse and molesting by clergy.

Rather than focus so much on church polity and organization, let's remember how Jesus did things = straight up and honest.

He never molested anyone nor mistreated the Samaritan woman. She was there for the taking, but he healed her over using her for his pleasure. He spoke in Matthew 23 of the "pretense of righteousness" and how demonic it was. His very presence on this earth was an affront to Satan and demons left people and feared his power.

Were I a pervert in sexual activity hidden behind my office door and big pulpit Bible, I would fear God's judgement of my hipocracy. Guys like this young evangelist are so full of it they think they are perfect in their own eyes and "it's just a weakness." They get forgiven and do it again. Inside a self-concept of perfection is a wonderful workshop for Satan!