Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby William Thornton » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:02 am

I've observed that BP is likely to ignore some types of stories that are news yet are negative towards the SBC.

I am pleased that BP has decided to fully report the story about an evangelist arrested back in October for hiding a camera in a lady's bathroom whose home he was staying in.

Evangelist Sammy Nuckolls, 33, charged with video voyeurism

The evangelist was said to have about 100 speaking engagements annually and was a featured speaker at some of LifeWay's student events.

No one is helped when this kind of stuff is kept quiet. Let the legal system work and Southern Baptists be aware.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12075
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:06 am

It's a sad story for him and those who had confidence in him.

There is an error in the story. There is no Blue Mountain College in Virginia. There is a Bluefield College, but that story has an obvious error.

There is a Blue Mountain in Mississippi.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7285
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:23 pm

Among Baptists I think the ABC/USA is right on target by having a system of recognition for ordained clergy. The local church still ordains but usually at the recommendation of a Regional or Associational committee. The denomination can't remove ordination but if they remove recognition it sends a very clear message that the Pastor is now persona non grata in the ABC.

I know William has said the SBC will never do this kind of thing. Maybe not. But if enough bad publicity gets out or enough lawsuits happen the SBC may want to consider some system to protect the denomination.

There was a recent case of a UMC pastor being caught in misconduct in one of our southern conferences. And he almost immediately turned in his credentials rather than go through an ecclesiastical trial and potential defrocking.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5969
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:08 pm

Any sense of if, when or how many times ABC-USA has removed recognition from a minister for a sex-related reason?
User avatar
Big Daddy Weaver
 
Posts: 2494
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:15 am
Location: Waco, TX

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:47 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Any sense of if, when or how many times ABC-USA has removed recognition from a minister for a sex-related reason?


Ed: It does happen, quietly. I know of only one case in Upstate NYS (237 churches) in the past 5 years. but there could have been more. I only know of the one because I am acquainted with a few of the people involved in assisting the church in resolving the situation and moving on toward healing. They now have an intentional Interim pastor.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:43 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Any sense of if, when or how many times ABC-USA has removed recognition from a minister for a sex-related reason?


BDW, I don't. I serve as the chair of the committee that dealt with these issues in Iowa and Minnesotta and I served on a committee in Indiana that was the group called if an investigation and decision had to be reached. When someone has their recognition removed that information is sent to every ABC region. I'm sure an ABC Executive Minister could come closer to giving you some idea of how often this happens.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5969
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:09 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Among Baptists I think the ABC/USA is right on target by having a system of recognition for ordained clergy. The local church still ordains but usually at the recommendation of a Regional or Associational committee. The denomination can't remove ordination but if they remove recognition it sends a very clear message that the Pastor is now persona non grata in the ABC.

I know William has said the SBC will never do this kind of thing. Maybe not. But if enough bad publicity gets out or enough lawsuits happen the SBC may want to consider some system to protect the denomination.

There was a recent case of a UMC pastor being caught in misconduct in one of our southern conferences. And he almost immediately turned in his credentials rather than go through an ecclesiastical trial and potential defrocking.


In a case like this, where the individual is basically a contractor with a denominational agency, in this case Lifeway, the agency itself can simply terminate their relationship via the contract. But as far as ordination goes, there's no SBC agency or entity that has the authority to "recognize" ordination, nor can they ordain. It's strictly a local church matter. I suppose that an individual could be referred back to the church that performed the ordination, and they could rescind it in the event of misconduct.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8863
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:45 pm

Sandy wrote:In a case like this, where the individual is basically a contractor with a denominational agency, in this case Lifeway, the agency itself can simply terminate their relationship via the contract. But as far as ordination goes, there's no SBC agency or entity that has the authority to "recognize" ordination, nor can they ordain. It's strictly a local church matter. I suppose that an individual could be referred back to the church that performed the ordination, and they could rescind it in the event of misconduct.


That is the way it is now Sandy. But does it have to be that way for time and eternity? Ordination is a church matter not given great detail in scriptures. If the SBC wanted an ordination recognition system the SBC could have one if the member churches and state conventions wanted it. The ABC didn't always have such a system. It developed over a long time. The ABC has changed its organizational structure more than once. Change can be a good thing. :wink:

Be that as it may, it isn't my problem. I certainly don't have any investment the SBC any longer. But I do continued to be surprised that the answer to these issues on behalf of the SBC is to just let it ride and not even look at possible ways to deal with these issues. I would think that might set up the SBC for serious legal issues some day.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5969
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby William Thornton » Fri Apr 06, 2012 5:57 am

I don't see any change in the concept of local churches in the SBC relinquishing any of their autonomy. I suppose if GuideStone health insurance went through the roof churches could be bribed to give up autonomy and join a pool of other churches where insurance for their ministers was mandatory.

If the SBC had a clergy sex abuse database I'm not certain that this individual, if convicted or if he confesses, would be on it. It is not quite that the SBC's approach to these things is to 'let it ride' but that the 'SBC,' a familar but incorrect use of the term itself, did not ordain this man. Certain SBC entities and churches employed him and they have ended his employment contract. If I were in the church that ordained him, I would take steps to review that action.

There have been background noises about some sort of SBC clergy guild but these have never gotten off the ground.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12075
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:56 am

William I don't believe it is a relinquishing of local church autonomy. Churches still decide whom they ordain. Churches still decide whom they will hire as pastor. Some churches choose to hire pastors who aren't recognized and have to live with the consequences, if any.

It is the clergy who have a different level of responsibility and accountability. As far as I have been aware, Baptist polity and doctrine doesn't necessarily teach pastoral autonomy. The pastor is responsible to the church they work for and if that church wants to participate in a national recognition system and call pastors based on that system that is in line with their autonomy. That is how American Baptists view it.

You might also want to note that American Baptists aren't the only Baptists in which churches ordain based on an associational ordination committee. The General Baptists do that as well.

How can Southern Baptists not want to create some kind of system to protect their churches and their members from such predators? Is local church autonomy the ultimate doctrine for Southern Baptists so that it even trumps the individual safety of church members from predators?

William I don't expect anything to change here. I'm just surprised that it doesn't appear that anyone is calling for some change.
Last edited by Tim Bonney on Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:46 am, edited 3 times in total.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5969
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Gene Scarborough » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:41 am

The system of accountability is biblical. Jesus clearly taught that "if anyone is caught in sin, go to him in private, if he does not change carry another who witnessed the same thing and confront him, if that does not work then take him before the church and cast him out."

The basic thrust was to give him room to repent.

When people are driven by perversion it is a serious matter and MUST be dealt with. For sure, God takes the harshest judgement toward those who are guilty of hipocracy.

No one gets away with it forever. What the SBC chuck-and-jive clearly says is "We don't really care."
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:50 am

Gene I don't know that it says that the SBC doesn't care. It seems to me more likely that no one is, or is willing, to think outside the box about their polity.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5969
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Sandy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 8:32 am

The "polity" of Southern Baptist churches rests on the independence and autonomy of the local church, which is rooted in the apostolic order of the New Testament. The way churches choose the individuals who occupy church offices is left completely up to the local church, including how members are received into the congregation. Most churches accept what is often referred to as the 'recommendation" of other churches "of like faith and order" when it comes to receiving members and recognizing the calling of pastors and deacons. In the case of a pastor, his status of being "ordained" in another congregation is generally recognized through the affirmation of his call by the congregation. In Baptist life, particularly among Southern Baptists, independents, and several other brands, there is no separate status for "clergy" vs "laity." Ordination simply recognizes an individual's call to service as either an elder or a deacon, but the authority of the church is congregational, and the ordained officers have one vote and no additional authority beyond their leadership ability to cast a vision and influence. Once they leave their position of service, their "ordination" doesn't provide them any privileges or benefits until they are called to their next place of service.

The SBC, state conventions, associations and entities are not involved in ordination, nor do they recognize ordination, and have no authority in this area, nor do they have any way to enforce a change even if they approved one, since nothing they can do is binding on a local church. The only way that could change would be for each of the 45,000+ churches in cooperation with the SBC to agree to give up some of their authority in this area, and change their constitutions and bylaws accordingly. And I don't see anything close to "recognition" such as the ABC-USA has in place, ever gaining any acceptance in the SBC. So in the process of calling a pastor, or hiring someone for a job at an SBC related agency, due diligence would catch any previous problem like this, and would prevent the individual from winding up somewhere else. The agencies are very good about screening candidates. The churches, unfortunately, are not as good.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8863
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:11 am

Sandy wrote:The "polity" of Southern Baptist churches rests on the independence and autonomy of the local church, which is rooted in the apostolic order of the New Testament. The way churches choose the individuals who occupy church offices is left completely up to the local church, including how members are received into the congregation. Most churches accept what is often referred to as the 'recommendation" of other churches "of like faith and order" when it comes to receiving members and recognizing the calling of pastors and deacons. In the case of a pastor, his status of being "ordained" in another congregation is generally recognized through the affirmation of his call by the congregation. In Baptist life, particularly among Southern Baptists, independents, and several other brands, there is no separate status for "clergy" vs "laity." Ordination simply recognizes an individual's call to service as either an elder or a deacon, but the authority of the church is congregational, and the ordained officers have one vote and no additional authority beyond their leadership ability to cast a vision and influence. Once they leave their position of service, their "ordination" doesn't provide them any privileges or benefits until they are called to their next place of service.

The SBC, state conventions, associations and entities are not involved in ordination, nor do they recognize ordination, and have no authority in this area, nor do they have any way to enforce a change even if they approved one, since nothing they can do is binding on a local church. The only way that could change would be for each of the 45,000+ churches in cooperation with the SBC to agree to give up some of their authority in this area, and change their constitutions and bylaws accordingly. And I don't see anything close to "recognition" such as the ABC-USA has in place, ever gaining any acceptance in the SBC. So in the process of calling a pastor, or hiring someone for a job at an SBC related agency, due diligence would catch any previous problem like this, and would prevent the individual from winding up somewhere else. The agencies are very good about screening candidates. The churches, unfortunately, are not as good.


Ed: So Sandy, what does "due diligence" look like in the SBC? the case at hand seems to belie you statement that "The agencies are very good about screening candidates." According to publised reports at least one agency and more than a few churches had clearances on this guy.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Gene Scarborough » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:04 pm

It is amazing to me that the SBC/NCBSC can kick out a NC church for ministering to homosexuals and another for having a female pastor----but can't do anything about sexual preditors :?

LIke it or not, we are perceived as a bunch of pretenders over perversion matters---and deserve such derision :brick:
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:44 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:It is amazing to me that the SBC/NCBSC can kick out a NC church for ministering to homosexuals and another for having a female pastor----but can't do anything about sexual preditors :?

LIke it or not, we are perceived as a bunch of pretenders over perversion matters---and deserve such derision :brick:


Ed: So Gene, what are you doing about the situation other than adding to the gossip?
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Sandy » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:47 pm

Ed Pettibone wrote:
Sandy wrote:The "polity" of Southern Baptist churches rests on the independence and autonomy of the local church, which is rooted in the apostolic order of the New Testament. The way churches choose the individuals who occupy church offices is left completely up to the local church, including how members are received into the congregation. Most churches accept what is often referred to as the 'recommendation" of other churches "of like faith and order" when it comes to receiving members and recognizing the calling of pastors and deacons. In the case of a pastor, his status of being "ordained" in another congregation is generally recognized through the affirmation of his call by the congregation. In Baptist life, particularly among Southern Baptists, independents, and several other brands, there is no separate status for "clergy" vs "laity." Ordination simply recognizes an individual's call to service as either an elder or a deacon, but the authority of the church is congregational, and the ordained officers have one vote and no additional authority beyond their leadership ability to cast a vision and influence. Once they leave their position of service, their "ordination" doesn't provide them any privileges or benefits until they are called to their next place of service.

The SBC, state conventions, associations and entities are not involved in ordination, nor do they recognize ordination, and have no authority in this area, nor do they have any way to enforce a change even if they approved one, since nothing they can do is binding on a local church. The only way that could change would be for each of the 45,000+ churches in cooperation with the SBC to agree to give up some of their authority in this area, and change their constitutions and bylaws accordingly. And I don't see anything close to "recognition" such as the ABC-USA has in place, ever gaining any acceptance in the SBC. So in the process of calling a pastor, or hiring someone for a job at an SBC related agency, due diligence would catch any previous problem like this, and would prevent the individual from winding up somewhere else. The agencies are very good about screening candidates. The churches, unfortunately, are not as good.


Ed: So Sandy, what does "due diligence" look like in the SBC? the case at hand seems to belie you statement that "The agencies are very good about screening candidates." According to publised reports at least one agency and more than a few churches had clearances on this guy.


He passed clearances because there were no charges, convictions or confessions prior to this incident in October 2011. Now there are others that have come up since then, but if they're not reported, and there's no court activity, passing a clearance and a criminal background check is a matter of sending it in and paying the fee. He'd have passed through any one else's system just as easily, and wouldn't have been listed on any data base of sex offenders. That's the legal system, not the SBC. His relationship with Lifeway was terminated as soon as this came to their attention.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8863
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Gene Scarborough » Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:34 pm

Sandy---I can assure you someone in his church had a suspicion or observation worthy of noting. Most perverts are like bad children---they make one step and check / another and check again / keep going until someone breaks out a paddle or takes them to the back room! :oops:

Ed---I can't do a thing about situations where the majority of Baptists in NC are compliant. You deal with your state and I will deal with mine. :)
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:22 pm

Sandy wrote:The "polity" of Southern Baptist churches rests on the independence and autonomy of the local church, which is rooted in the apostolic order of the New Testament.


Well obviously anyone who isn't in a congregational system of church government would disagree with the above. :wink: I personally think local autonomy is the hardest church governance system to defend out of the New Testament. But that's another subject for another thread.

I do know what the system is in the SBC Sandy. I was a Southern Baptist for quite a while. But the argument that the SBC can't do it based on New Testament polity doesn't wash because other congregationalist denominations with local church autonomy have recognition systems for their clergy or they have systems where the clergy police themselves. The SBC and its churches just choose not to for whatever reason. I'm not going to speculate on what those reasons are. But they baffle me.

Next you'll be telling me that the Convention system was in the New Testament as well. :D Baptists left the fold of Anglicanism over issues of purity. They said they wanted a pure New Testament church. Well what is pure about letting abusive clergy run rouge and unchecked just to protect local church power?

Much of the New Testament understanding of the faith isn't about freedom, it is about responsibility and discipline.
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5969
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Haruo » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:39 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Next you'll be telling me that the Convention system was in the New Testament as well.
Well sure, I'm pretty sure the first Southern Baptist Convention was held in the forties, I think it's in Acts somewhere. Paul went. I think.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12252
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Apr 06, 2012 9:54 pm

Haruo wrote:Well sure, I'm pretty sure the first Southern Baptist Convention was held in the forties, I think it's in Acts somewhere. Paul went. I think.


Ah, I thought you were going to say that he attended the Biennial. But I was sure he was a delegate to General Conference. :wink: :lol:
Tim Bonney

First UMC of Indianola, Iowa - http://indfumc.org
My Blog - http://timbonney.com
User avatar
Tim Bonney
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5969
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:17 am
Location: Indianola, Iowa

Re: Baptist Press reports on SBC evangelist's video voyeurism

Postby Gene Scarborough » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:51 am

A moment of hilarity is badly needed in this time of abuse and molesting by clergy.

Rather than focus so much on church polity and organization, let's remember how Jesus did things = straight up and honest.

He never molested anyone nor mistreated the Samaritan woman. She was there for the taking, but he healed her over using her for his pleasure. He spoke in Matthew 23 of the "pretense of righteousness" and how demonic it was. His very presence on this earth was an affront to Satan and demons left people and feared his power.

Were I a pervert in sexual activity hidden behind my office door and big pulpit Bible, I would fear God's judgement of my hipocracy. Guys like this young evangelist are so full of it they think they are perfect in their own eyes and "it's just a weakness." They get forgiven and do it again. Inside a self-concept of perfection is a wonderful workshop for Satan!
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC


Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest