SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Gene Scarborough » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:59 pm

Gentlemen:

I have just returned from the NCCBF meeting in Raleigh---which was one filled with renewed friendships / no angst / displaying all the best of Baptist relationships and ministry. It reminds me of what we used to enjoy before the "great political mess of CR Takeover."

My roomate and I took at trip up to Wake Forest and around the SEBTS campus. He was there in the 50's. I was there in the late 60's. The physical change to the campus and buildings is very noticible. There is now a building in honor of Paige Patterson. Other building names have been hyphinated--reflecting the new backers with money added to the old backers.

I roomed in the Johnson Dormitory which is now Johnson-Goldston because a big building contractor obviously put in bucks to renovate and improve. Assuming that dorm is the one housing the offense reported, I see an obvious change in what was there in 1967-70 vs. what is going on now.

My rebuke in making this a CR-Takeover matter is noted and NOT honored by me!

Indeed, there is a distinct change at SEBTS which I tried to note earlier. That change is the pretense of perfection with a super-conservative student body pretending too often to have achieved perfection of morals. Instead, the frailty of the human spirit is beckoned by Satan to fail---and do so in dramatic terms.

I note that Dave Miller is attempting to soften the seriousness of the offense. The legal aspects of the charge makes it far more serious. The Wake Sheriff's Department is fully aware of how NC law reads. Each officer in NC carries a thick book of NC law in their cruiser. Even with a traffic violation, the Highway Patrol and Deputies of local Sheriff's Departments can be seen behind the offender looking up the specific offense and citing it on the ticket. They must go to court and defend their citation under NC law.

A Defense Attorney loves nothing more than a failure in the citation to be legal. You can bet this case is not a simple case of "mistaken charges." You can also bet what Wade and David cited in the details of NC law is more accurate than Dave Miller's softening of it.

Here is my comment on people trying to say I am just making a CR matter out of "something not so serious:"

The reason I say SEBTS was not a place of debauchery in 1967-70 when I was there is that EVERY student came with the required recommendation of his local church. Those who were from other denominations paid a far greater Metriculation Fee since their fees were not covered under Cooperative Program giving. There was a form in every student file certifying the seriousenss of the student's calling to ministry and the local church's recommendation of him to SEBTS. That, in itself, kept perverts from getting by the system. We might have had such, but I never encountered them nor heard of anyone getting into trouble with law enforcement over a sordid act of sodomy or child porn.

A case not cited in all this is one of a student arrested in the last 15 years because his computer contained kiddie porn and he was trying to seduce a child over the internet and got caught by the special enforcement in Wake County on child pornography.

Here is the issue: I visited SEBTS as a MInisters LIfe Representative in 1986-1995 when ML was bought out by Minnesota Mutual. It was the time of CR takeover and Randal Lolley's forced resignation. After that the student body changed dramatically. I used that time to simply hang out in the LIbrary and informally talk with the "new student" appearing on the campus.

Few knew anything about SBC things nor regular SBC leadership. Because of my total involvement in the SBC and RA's, I knew the names of each Executive of the HMB / FMB / other agencies of the SBC. My informal listening and talking with students revealed most came from Liberty University (Jerry Falwell) and Heritage College (Pat Robertson) who had now heard that SEBTS was a "safe place" to get a degree with little cost.

I was so bold as to ask the Registrar if I might see some of the files to determine if the "required form" of my day was present in the 80's. I was politely refused access since those files were "confidential." Further, I asked if I might know exactly what was spent on renovations of the President's Home under the Drummond Administration where it was alledged that much was spent providing Mrs. Drummond with a humidity-controlled closet for her furs. Again, my request was "politely" refused. The closest I could get was a talk with the contractor who did the renovations. His take was "she could not be satisfied with what was originally done and made them take out and redo many things associated with the renovation." I worked my way through college as a Trim Carpenter. Whenever we had such an "undecided" customer, we charged for the original work, more for the removal, even more for the redoing of things a customer could not make up their mind. It amounted to tripling the origninal cost of renovations.

Although this has little to do with the over-all picture of "changes," it clearly has to do with a lack of "due dilligence" over who became a student and what Cooperative Program dollars were wasted in "pleasing the new President and his wife." The same was true when Patterson arrived on scene to complete the changes with forced renovation in faculty. The changes were so brutal that the Faculty formed a chapter of SACS to protect their tenure and position from a mass firing.

When the "pretense of perfection" is so bold, it is bound to hide imperfections now surfaced with the current charges against a student which are yet to be heard in the courtroom in Raleigh. It will be a brutal legal battle to soften the charges so that the offender will have less jail time or might even get off---with a costly defense in court. I am glad Wade wants to help him with funds because there will be many needed to "beat the rap."

On the other side as the Wake County DA charges him, there is much caution that the charges be accurate. You remember the case in Durham County over Duke students charged with raping an adult entertainer in a Fraternity. Those poorly handled charges resulted in the Defense Attorney getting that case thrown out and the DA was fired over charges his investigation was politically motivated and was false. Further, the NC Bar took the DA's profession from him because he violated the ethics rules of the NC Bar!

This is serious. It is not made in a light fashion. SEBTS has cautiously withdrawn their support and fired the student! That is the first step in showing how egregious it all is. Danny Akin addressed it in a recent Chapel Service. Those details are not yet revealed, but I am sure it was a caustic moral inditement of any student not walking an honorable walk in the faith.

As Wade Buleson has clearly stated: "We need to address this issue and quit acting as if it does not happen."
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Sandy » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:42 am

Gene Scarborough wrote:The reason I say SEBTS was not a place of debauchery in 1967-70 when I was there is that EVERY student came with the required recommendation of his local church. Those who were from other denominations paid a far greater Metriculation Fee since their fees were not covered under Cooperative Program giving. There was a form in every student file certifying the seriousenss of the student's calling to ministry and the local church's recommendation of him to SEBTS. That, in itself, kept perverts from getting by the system. We might have had such, but I never encountered them nor heard of anyone getting into trouble with law enforcement over a sordid act of sodomy or child porn.


Nothing has changed in the admissions process at Southeastern that you've mentioned here. You still provide evidence of your call to ministry, affirmed by your local church. Non-Southern Baptists still pay more tuition and fees than students from SBC churches do, though I don't see what that has to do with your point.

The fact that there's been an increase in reports of sexual assaults involving individuals in ministry, whether its in the Catholic church or elsewhere, has to do with the fact that there is a much greater awareness of such things now, and victims get much more support and assistance with what to do from law enforcement and from volunteer organizations than they once did. Pressure on authorities not only to help victims, but to be proactive in preventing the abuse from happening in the first place also makes it easier for individuals to report crimes like this.

I know of at least two incidents which occurred in the 70's involving students at the Baptist college I attended, neither of which was reported because the students involved felt guilty, didn't want anyone else to know, and chose to just leave school rather than bring it to light. I'm not sure what would have happened if anything like that had ever been reported at the school, since the school officials were obviously not prepared or equipped to handle it, and there was nothing either in the school's written policy guidelines, or in the verbal presentations given to students at orientation, that covered it. The general attitude was, "That kind of thing doesn't happen here."

I don't get the point of your pointing out the changes you found at Southeastern on your little tour through Wake Forest. You'd certainly expect some changes since "'em good ole daze" and that they might have some benefactors who handed out a few checks for some new facilities. Nothing wrong with that. So the ole place has changed.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Gene Scarborough » Sun Mar 25, 2012 10:23 am

Sandy---

You missed my point entirely!!!!

We had a different kind of approach to theological education and morality in 1967-70. The fact that far more "pretense of perfection" is present is the problem.

Until people become more authentic in this day in the way there were in my day, there will be NO solution. :cry:
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Sandy » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:03 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:We had a different kind of approach to theological education and morality in 1967-70. The fact that far more "pretense of perfection" is present is the problem.


Pretense of perfection? What the heck does that mean? That in your day the behavior expectations of seminary students wasn't as high? Or that this action wouldn't have been seen as "sinful"? Really?

Otherwise, you make no sense.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Gene Scarborough » Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:04 am

Pretense of Perfection = putting on a great show that one has arrived at the point of moral superiority that allows for judging others of less stature.

Along with this comes the tremendous temptations of humans and the inability to admit to such. This becomes Satan's playground and he does a good job of finding our weak points so we crumble with sin.

The basic definition of "sin" is "separation"---from God / self / other people.

Know thyself and quit playing the perfect Christian! None of us is perfect and above a state of sin. :)
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:05 am

Sandy, you mentioned an incident in a Baptist college, but earlier you had said that such was the way that SEBTS would deal with such things before the Takeover. What evidence do you have other than your college anecdote?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:02 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Sandy, you mentioned an incident in a Baptist college, but earlier you had said that such was the way that SEBTS would deal with such things before the Takeover. What evidence do you have other than your college anecdote?


The incident I mentioned is anecdotal, but was a result of a time when schools didn't have comprehensive policies for dealing with this kind of incident, as well as those who were victims of it not having a clear awareness of how to proceed, or knowing where to receive support and assistance if they did proceed. My statement regarding SEBTS and the way they would have responded is, of course, merely speculation, though I don't recall any of the Baptist seminaries or colleges back in those days being "cutting edge" or "progressive" in the way they handled reported sexual assaults. It has only been in the last thirty years or so that educational institutions, even secular ones, have become more victim-friendly, and proactive in dealing with such problems.

My speculation regarding SEBTS is provocative, based on Gene's remarks that the current incident is a direct result of the school's theological position and approach to Biblical interpretation, and that in his day on the campus, when the good ole boys were in charge, all was right with the world and they would never have had anything like this happen. That's as laughable as anything I've ever seen here. "Pretense of perfection" is an invented term that explains nothing, and indicates that the level of self-righteousness among at least one alumni of SEBTS pre-CR is pretty high. It's a legitimate question, given that some former SEBTS administrators are among those Baptists who don't think homosexuality is necessarily sinful, how they would have handled something like this. Or would it even have been reported? I'm trying to get Gene to answer that question.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:31 am

Sandy wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Sandy, you mentioned an incident in a Baptist college, but earlier you had said that such was the way that SEBTS would deal with such things before the Takeover. What evidence do you have other than your college anecdote?


The incident I mentioned is anecdotal, but was a result of a time when schools didn't have comprehensive policies for dealing with this kind of incident, as well as those who were victims of it not having a clear awareness of how to proceed, or knowing where to receive support and assistance if they did proceed. My statement regarding SEBTS and the way they would have responded is, of course, merely speculation, though I don't recall any of the Baptist seminaries or colleges back in those days being "cutting edge" or "progressive" in the way they handled reported sexual assaults. It has only been in the last thirty years or so that educational institutions, even secular ones, have become more victim-friendly, and proactive in dealing with such problems.

My speculation regarding SEBTS is provocative, based on Gene's remarks that the current incident is a direct result of the school's theological position and approach to Biblical interpretation, and that in his day on the campus, when the good ole boys were in charge, all was right with the world and they would never have had anything like this happen. That's as laughable as anything I've ever seen here. "Pretense of perfection" is an invented term that explains nothing, and indicates that the level of self-righteousness among at least one alumni of SEBTS pre-CR is pretty high. It's a legitimate question, given that some former SEBTS administrators are among those Baptists who don't think homosexuality is necessarily sinful, how they would have handled something like this. Or would it even have been reported? I'm trying to get Gene to answer that question.


Sandy, thank you for an honest response. When I was a college student, I'm not aware of any such violations, but there were certainly heterosexual involvements that got people suspended from school in the Baptist College atmosphere. I served three years as an assistant dorm resident (RA in today's terms), and we never had to deal with any events like that. I can't promise they did not happen, just as you cannot prove they did. BTW, wrestling with getting a biblical perspective on homosexuality is in no way synonymous with excusing a criminal act of sexual assault. The perpetrator should, if convicted, become part of the public sex-offender-registry which he will carry for the rest of his life, whether the attack is homosexual or heterosexual.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Gene Scarborough » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:04 am

So Sandy----

All you stuff is ancedotal and conjecture without one ounce of personal experience.

I gave you an answer and you dismiss it and then alledge that I am being self-righteous = give me a break!!!

Thus far we are getting hot air and speculation from you---and you have not changed one iota nor will you admit we had an authentic theological education in my day as opposed to a bunch of pretend rightousness beneath which is a cesspool of corruption among some of the "perfect ones."

Sadly, I think you are living in a dream world of CR bunkshooting. :(
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby William Thornton » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:37 am

The CR is over three decades old, Gene, and the moderates have been out for almost twenty. While I thought your nostalgic visit to campus was interesting, I don't see any broad generalizations that apply to the incident in question. You might respond to something current rather than always falling back on things decades ago.

Concerning the sexual assault. I have characterized the response of the seminary as timely and appropriate. I take it that you ahve read the relevant links and quotes from seminary officials. Would you argue that anything in the seminary's response was inappropriate and/or untimely, and, if so, precisely why?
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12025
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Dave Roberts » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:15 am

William Thornton wrote:The CR is over three decades old, Gene, and the moderates have been out for almost twenty. While I thought your nostalgic visit to campus was interesting, I don't see any broad generalizations that apply to the incident in question. You might respond to something current rather than always falling back on things decades ago.

Concerning the sexual assault. I have characterized the response of the seminary as timely and appropriate. I take it that you ahve read the relevant links and quotes from seminary officials. Would you argue that anything in the seminary's response was inappropriate and/or untimely, and, if so, precisely why?


William, I took offense only at Sandy's innuendo and character assassination about how he said it wouild have been swept under the rug before the Takeover. He has since admitted that was based on a single incident in a Baptist College and not a seminary. I am satisfied that he recognized the truth of what he was doing.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7220
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:02 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Sandy, thank you for an honest response. When I was a college student, I'm not aware of any such violations, but there were certainly heterosexual involvements that got people suspended from school in the Baptist College atmosphere. I served three years as an assistant dorm resident (RA in today's terms), and we never had to deal with any events like that. I can't promise they did not happen, just as you cannot prove they did. BTW, wrestling with getting a biblical perspective on homosexuality is in no way synonymous with excusing a criminal act of sexual assault. The perpetrator should, if convicted, become part of the public sex-offender-registry which he will carry for the rest of his life, whether the attack is homosexual or heterosexual.


Agreed.

I don't see that there's been much "wrestling" with a biblical perspective on homosexuality, at least, not from some of SEBTS's former profs and administration. They've pretty much concluded that there's not a definitive Biblical perspective on it. But regardless of that position, it should not excuse a criminal sexual assault. I'm just speculating, in light of Gene's ludicrous assertions that such things didn't happen in his day at SEBTS because they were somehow getting a better theological education than students there are now getting. The fact of the matter is that silence regarding sexual assault, on Baptist campuses and elsewhere, back in the 50's, 60's and even into the 70's was largely due to the fear victims had if they reported, and the lack of support they experienced when they did. Our society as a whole has changed that attitude, though it took a lot of fighting and changing of laws. If it comforts Gene to think that it has something to do with his theory of "Pretense of Perfection" then the facts aren't going to matter to him much, anyway. :lol:
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby William Thornton » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:24 pm

These types of incidents were generally hushed up in earlier years, whether they occurred in churches or institutions. Things have changed.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12025
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Gene Scarborough » Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:52 pm

Sandy:

I'm just speculating, in light of Gene's ludicrous assertions that such things didn't happen in his day at SEBTS because they were somehow getting a better theological education than students there are now getting. The fact of the matter is that silence regarding sexual assault, on Baptist campuses and elsewhere, back in the 50's, 60's and even into the 70's was largely due to the fear victims had if they reported, and the lack of support they experienced when they did. Our society as a whole has changed that attitude, though it took a lot of fighting and changing of laws. If it comforts Gene to think that it has something to do with his theory of "Pretense of Perfection" then the facts aren't going to matter to him much, anyway.


Speculating has nothing to do with FACTS, therefore facts have not been presented from you, old buddy, and until they are I contend:

We did not have a problem back then at SEBTS because we were people of integrity who tried our best to practice what we preached!

The pretense of perfection was aptly addressed by Jesus in Matthew 23 as he accused the Pharisees of being "whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones." That was his way of saying the same as I am saying now! :)
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

I would love to see Scarborough and Thornton

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:03 pm

Reopen the question of SEBTS, and the way things played out there, with another thread.
History in the Revisit or some such; from the role of James Deloach, to Jerry Vines off campus meeting when the Peace Committee came to visit.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:29 pm

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Gene Scarborough » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:48 pm

What the heck do you mean, Stephen :?
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:55 pm

Would be interesting to see you or Thornton to reopen the SEBTS debacle of 87 here at SBC Trends with a thread of its own,
and see how you both remember it and place it in the larger context of the upheaval of those years.

That is what I mean.
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9129
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:29 pm

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:56 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:Sandy:

I'm just speculating, in light of Gene's ludicrous assertions that such things didn't happen in his day at SEBTS because they were somehow getting a better theological education than students there are now getting. The fact of the matter is that silence regarding sexual assault, on Baptist campuses and elsewhere, back in the 50's, 60's and even into the 70's was largely due to the fear victims had if they reported, and the lack of support they experienced when they did. Our society as a whole has changed that attitude, though it took a lot of fighting and changing of laws. If it comforts Gene to think that it has something to do with his theory of "Pretense of Perfection" then the facts aren't going to matter to him much, anyway.


Speculating has nothing to do with FACTS, therefore facts have not been presented from you, old buddy, and until they are I contend:

We did not have a problem back then at SEBTS because we were people of integrity who tried our best to practice what we preached!

The pretense of perfection was aptly addressed by Jesus in Matthew 23 as he accused the Pharisees of being "whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones." That was his way of saying the same as I am saying now! :)


Yes, Gene, I get the point. The Pharisees proclaimed, as you do now, that when they were in charge, they did not have a problem. I do see the connection. You're equating the good ole days at SEBTS with the Pharisees of the New Testament. They did a good job of self-proclaiming their own righteousness, almost as good as you are doing now. And I concur.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8744
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: SBC Blogger Charged w/ Sexual Assault

Postby Gene Scarborough » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:58 pm

Sandy---

Not just "NO" but "HELL NO!!!!!"

The day of the Pharisee is here and now and CR is replete with it! Am I making myself clear enough for you to understand my message? :?
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Previous

Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron