Phil Roberts out at Midwestern Seminary

[Lamar Wadsworth]

I lurk more than I post here lately, surprised that nobody has started a thread on the storm surrounding Midwestern Seminary president Phil Roberts. Roberts is now out according to published reports this morning, choosing to resign rather than face prospect of being fired by the trustees. He was there 11 years, followed Mark Coppenger who left under similar unfavorable circumstances. I'm no longer Southern Baptist, don't know how much of it is due to the personalities and/or actions of Coppenger and Roberts and how much of it is a systemic problem with the institution. Could be some of both, I don't know. Is this a situation comparable to churches that have a history of chewing up pastors and staff?

[Haruo]

The faiure to report on this here may be as much geographical as anything. We don't have much activity north of Texas and west of Virginia.

I know nothing about the situation at Midwestern, so will just wait for comments from those who may or may not know anything but have something to say anyway.

[Stephen Fox]

www.abpnews.com has a story up. All of em need to read The Anointed. Phil's Dad Ray was big wheel in Ohio or thereabouts

[William Thornton]

Trustees had a forensic audit of seminary finances done. Roberts had 11 CFOs in his 11 years. I don't think the problem would have been with the institution. More to come on this. Read the ABP piece for as much as is public.

[Gene Scarborough]

The CR folks are hard to please and ready to fire!

In NC we had this recently with the forced exit of our Biblical Recorder Editor, Norman Jameson. He was the choice of new leadership after Tony Cartledge. He danced his own tune with great attention to any dirty stuff going on in NC Associations now.

It seems they are through with SEBTS / BR / and are now focusing on "cleansing" each Association in the state. We now have a Financial Policy to enforce even the acceptance of gifts from churches wanting to participate in NC missions.

It is a far cry from the Autonomy which used to allow for an openess seldom seen these days outside NCCBF---which is growing in a strong fashion!

[William Thornton]

[Gene Scarborough]

The spirit of hate and greed is hard to change. Even though things might be better, I don't see a spirit of love and trust yet returning to the SBC.

Sorry.

[Sandy]

Gene, you need to read the ABP piece. Even the normal "we aren't the SBC" bent isn't making this about the CR.

The guy was there 11 years. That's longer than the term of service of either of CBF's executive directors, and most of the leadership at some of the moderate Baptist educational alternative schools.

[Gene Scarborough]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gene, when you say "was denied access to any student records simply to see if they had the required recommendation paper from their local cooperating SBC church."

I must ask why should you have had access to student records. And when speaking of "required recommendation paper from their local cooperating SBC church", a paper required by whom, for what purpose ? And what period of time are we talking about ?

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

As a CP contributor expecting only recommended students to get their major fees paid out of CP dollars while such a student pays only a small metriculation fee, it was a reasonable request. It required no disclosure of any information which should not be public. I would have been satisfied with a look-in-the-eye certification by the Registrar, but got a total rebuff on my simple question after having met a majority of students who didn't know what RA's nor HMB was nor who was the Exec! A SBC church-recommended student in 1967-70 knew simple SBC facts and people. I know of no student there with a fundamentalist independent background. Those guys all went to Bob Jones, Liberty, etc.Not the case in 1989 when I was asking questions and making visits as their insurance professional.

Anytime someone cries "privacy" or "national security" there is a far higher chance they are covering up their dirty deeds. Any student not having such a recommendation from a SBC church was welcome at my SEBTS, but paid their own way at a much higher cost!

Timothy---

Autonomy is that concept that allows people of differing theologies to major on missions and minor on theological nit-picking. While the surface issue at MWBTS is money management and creative accounting, it always boils down to who kisses whose kiester!

I have seen far more crooked things done without a whisper by Reccord with NAMB funds for a much longer time before his string ran out.

The most important question here is "Why are those air-walking "Men of God" finding it so hard to not party on God's mission money given in trust for the spread of the Gospel?"

When Dr. Corts Redford was Executive Director of the Home Mission Board, he rode a train or drove his personal auto to keep from depriving one mission dollar from the missionaries for whom it was given. It was "comfort and high class" to fly from the Atlanta Airport. It was more important to not glory in excess of Executive Office!

The change is dramatic and should concern us. Personally, I choose not to support further CP nor Special MIssion Offerings under the SBC umbrella. I do not find such waste nor hiding in the CBF.

[Sandy]

It's decades old news now, but I am just as certain as you are that all of the kind of thing you're griping about regarding SEBTS went on across the SBC long before the Conservative Resurgence thought about motivating a single messenger. Any time you have an independent, autonomous structure where the trustee boards you are accountable to are made up of your friends and relatives, and a stream of funding coming in large quantities, you're going to have griping about who is getting what and how much on who's dime. But this isn't about Lolley or his buds on the trustee board at Southeastern who eventually got pushed out when the liberalism there was exposed. This is Midwestern and it is 2012.

It seemed that a lot of pre-1979 SBC leaders were prone to long trips to exotic destinations to preach in churches where the congregations didn't understand English, and liked to plan meetings near Florida golf resorts, and choose expensive hotels for convention headquarters. Seems some moderate Baptists still operate under the premise that their "presence" is a necessary element to motivate people working in a particular mission field.

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

You are so bent on defending the SBC, you fail to acknowledge the excesses after 1979! This is total smoke-and-mirrors horse manure, in my view!

I just saw a "60-Minutes" presentation on a magic cure out of prestegious Duke Medical School for cancer. They presented in prestigeous journals of medicine and had applied for patents promising to net Duke gigantic sums of money and patients a magic bullet cure for their particular cancer----all false!!!

Duke is admitting to the hoodwink and saying they were fooled as well. The young Research Physician foisting the hoax was working under a noted senior research Doctor at Duke. Despite all the so-called scientific research protocol, they all got fooled. To their credit, they are owning up to such despite the threat of lawsuits from those volunteering for treatments and getting nothing. Other researchers simply could not replicate the Duke findings and began to question them.

So----what the heck makes you so gullable about the SBC shenanigans since 1979. Your deference cites large church Pastors enjoying perks of their bigness and that of their buddies.

SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE that one of our MIssion Agency heads or those of a Children's Home or other MISSION MINISTRY was basking in the sunshine and using MISSION MONEY for personal benefit and luscious extravagant living!!!!

Listen, old buddy, money for missions used to be so sacred, no one dared lie about it nor use one red cent for administration than necessary. The HMB Headquarters building was on Spring Street in downtown Atlanta---NOT in Affluent Alpharetta where is is now with an ornate building as opposed to the plain jane office space of Spring Street. The same was true of the FMB in Richmond and Headquarters in Nashville. We were poor people---not fancy CEO's at this time of SBC unity over sharing the Gospel.

I am rightfully angered with your deference. Such is the basis of blind trust still going on---when missionary salaries and positions are being cut right and left to still support the well-paid CEO of each! NOT GOOD!

The moneychangers are on the Temple steps and Jesus took a whip and beat the hell out of them one day!!! It wasn't pretty or nice, but they were pretending their "God's money" stuff--and Jesus made no excuses for their greed and pomposity! The one time in his ministry he showed wrath and destruction was with people playing with money given in trust!

Where's my whip, buddy, and you need to plan an exit strategy----QUICK!!!!

[Gene Scarborough]

Timothy---

You left----I haven't left the scene of the corruption and desception associated with the demise of the SBC.

The chapters in the Bible dealing with the pomposity of the Pharisees and their part in Jesus' death have not been expunged! They stand as tribute to how badly corrupt and wrong religion could become when it was about big money and egos dictating their ways to the trusting crowd.

If such things should happen in your current UMC relationship---would you keep your mouth shut????

My oft repeated sermon has nothing to do with not leaving hurts behind. I no longer support the SBC nor it's mission causes---PERIOD.

I will speak clearly to my dying breath if CBF / UMC / RC / SBC any other organized religion which cares more about money and show than simply ministering humbly to those needing help and the Good News. This is but another chapter in "pretend religion" going on before the actual split and pretty well documented since = the beat goes on, brother---get over your refusal to admit it!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed; Tim, where would you have put Midwestern on the Fundamentalist to liberal spectrum during the time you where there? Off the top of my head I am not sure I had ever known any one who attended there until I ran into you and Flick. Even among my Missouri contacts Southern and Southwestern have been dominant.

And Gene, long before the take over, the Old saying "there is no sense crying over spilled milk" was well understood by most folk by the time they where in high school and at 65 You still do not seem to understand its value. Yes we need to remember our history and hopefully learn from it but I would think that with a psych major, you would have learned that nurturing grief is self destructive. For my self I am greatly disappointed in The direction the SBC has embraced but other than to correct some of the misconceptions of folk on these boards (William, Sandy and J. Sneed, ect; ) and once in a while when some one brings up something in the current news about Mohler or his little buddy R.Moor or the other Seminary President married to the lady with the Minnie Pearl hats. I don't spend much time and energy on what the SBC does or doesn't do, except for praying for the many young folk who have heard only the redacted hype of the SBC leadership. Occasional I hear something about this or that rebel young SBC blogger, and when I take a look I have some hope that their brightest and best may one day mature into the leaders of another take over.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I have long since given up on spilt milk!

I did my best to stop the stuff at SEBTS with no real effect. Now I am friends with Randall Lolley and others still grieving over the takeover and career loss.

I did my best to help as the NCBSC was taken over and their Financial Policy implemented to stop churches from giving which minister to homosexuals. It is now extending to churches calling a female as their minister.

I am the one who brought a formal complaint to the Secretary of State in NC as a member of the corporation violating its own statement of Autonomy with the new Financial Policy. I caused them a great amount of grief and legal fees as they cited the minute legal fact that "only the Trustees were Incorporated rather than the Convention, itself"---despite the fact they had been advocating for every church to get incorporation as a protection from lawsuits for individuals leading it = total inconsistency! Their minds were made up and I could not change them even though I played a tough legal card.

When the NCBSC did finally incorporate, I found no other large church leading pastors who gave a care. They were just going to NCCBF and didn't really care about recovery from CR takeover for our dear old NCBSC.

My reason for caring so much is my deep involvement personally with SBC work. My father had the same deep and committed involvement. We both knew what the heart of Autonomy was---and how it allowed people of differing theological fine points to pull together for the sharing of the Gospel.

I am in a town with no Baptist church. Some have suggested me and my wife start one. My question is: "So if this town has many churches already (UMC / Episcopal / Church of Christ / small charismatic group) why should we start something else?" I am content to participate with New Bern FBC as they have a great morning worship at 11:00 each Sunday on TV. Their pastor is a good friend and I share with him in a mentoring relationship as he struggles to lead an old church growing with many new converts and participants. My plate is full and, frankly, just going to church does little for me these days.

What does me good is the number of tree clients who open up their spiritual needs without knowing I am an ordained clergyman! I took the tree off their house without damage. They now trust me---and don't see me with Bible in hand pontificating from the pulpit. Therefore, they tell me the honest truth about their spiritual needs and I am able to help them find peace and joy through a renewed faith.

I like it! I don't like you guys accusing me of crying over spilt milk. Jesus cried over Jerusalem. He put a whipping on the same Pharisees who had turned the Temple into a good opportunity to live a plush life telling people what to do and requiring they change their street money to Temple money to do business with God = hogwash which hasn't changed until this day and is at the root of the Midwestern firing.

When Jesus quits crying over Jerusalem, I will quit it with the SBC and all things Baptist!

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sorry, Sandy---

I was there and I didn't see it to the degree you describe. A Pastor leading a church to serious giving to the CP was always considered for leadership BUT is was a widely shared leadership.

The CR takeover folks were giving little---and got little consideration. In addition they were hard to get along with and that hasn't changed one iota. They just have to fight among themselves these days.

The moderates are enjoying a good cooperative time together at CBF!!!

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Timothy---

I tilted my last windmills over Randall Lolley's firing at SEBTS and with the Financial Policy of the NCBSC.

My conscience is now clear over my attempts to change the unchangeable.

If I had it to do over again with the hindsight now had, I would have gone directly to the UMC since their pastors have always been my best friends in any town I served. I saw many good things with my Ministers Life visits to the Eastern NC Conference meeting at Fayetteville each year.

I try to still be prophetic about things religious. E. Clinton Gardner of Emory's Candler School of Theology wrote a book in the 60's entitled "Prophetic Ministry." In it he described the Prophet as one seeking change in the here and now as opposed to talking only about the future. A good prophet, in his view, was one calling for reconciliation of religion with God and his Spirit---best shown in Christ.

I am glad you found a home in the UMC. You have made a wise choice because they are not as fickle and plain crazy as many Baptists these days. I have actually called the local DS to offer my services as an Interim or Supply, but we have so many already retired UMC clergy here, they have not called on me. Another good Baptist friend is doing an interim at the corner of Virginia where they are short of ordained clergy---and having a ball.

Put in a good word for me down here and I will gladly serve under the UMC banner. I love to preach and always focus on the biblical message.

May God bless us both---and may my message find a listening ear and heart here at Baptist Life!

[Dave Roberts]

I have to concur that this has little to do with the CR. It seems that MBTS just had two leaders chosen in a row who were not fitted to the job of educational administration and didn't bother to follow the rules of their governing board.

[Tim Bonney]