The Grand SBC Takeover/Resurgence Thread

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

[Gene Scarborough]

This is getting plumb H-I-L-A-R-I-U-S!!!!

Watch out, Ed, or I'll hike my little doggie leg on you and really "piss you off!" I love to jump out at cats and run before they can put a claw on me. They are soo funny when their fir is all stuck up like an electric shock just got um!!!

I think William's pic is far more impressive then Newt Gingrich too!!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed. This thread has degenerated too far. I am out of it. But I do wonder if Bruce would really permit Scarborough's potty mouth in his living room.

[William Thornton]

[Gene Scarborough]

Maybe a good night's rest and good cup of coffee will resurrect Ed's sense of humor!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

---HANG IN THERE ED!!!

I try to love even the unloveable =

[William Thornton]

Maybe we could put you two in one of those cage fights like is so popular now. Two old codgers mostly swinging and missing and then collapsing in exhaustion.

[William Thornton]

This has been fun. Perhaps we could move on...

[Dave Roberts]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I think you are exactly right on this!

In any organized group there are connections, but the pre-1979 ones were far different from those post-1979.

I have been here since 1946 and my father an active SBC pastor in SC / NC /GA. He was not in any special group within the state conventions nor the SBC. He was asked to help NC in setting together and promoting the first Annuity Board participants. He went from there to GA, outside Atlanta. He renewed friendships in the GBC with old Mercer friends and also was active in the Atlanta Baptist Association. NEVER did he use politics for advancement. He (like me) believed God put you where He needed you most.

My father ended up getting fired by a suburban church which told him they wanted to grow, but some of the old hands of the "good old boys club" in that community conspired against him. They did not want to relinquish their power to newcomers my Dad had won to Christ. The worst one was a lawyer / mayor / head of the Finance Committee using the church's building fund money to put pressure on a case he was trying to win against the provider of steel for the sanctuary.

You see, clubs and connections leading to control are part of society. If they are balanced and cordial, it can be good. If they want to rule and exclude, you then have a corner of Hell---and the disciples wanting position over servanthood ressurected alongside our Servant Messiah!

Human nature has not really changed since Creation. It becomes what we allow it to be. If you want to have an exclusive group running things exclusively, then the size will be limited with those who feel they are part of the experience.

[Gene Scarborough]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gene what is the point in restating what you call the "obvious"? Obviously, the criterion of church giving for mission causes is no longer a main concern for election to leadership. " let me play the devils advocate here and ask *** 'Should church giving for mission causes have ever been a MAIN concern for election to leadersip? OR in other words are you suggesting that leadership positions are or should/could be up for sale to the highest bidder? """"

Now again as my self, I have in the past joined the chorus in chastising churches that failed to meet the standard 10% goal of giving to the CP and have bragged that most of the churches I have attended met or exceeded that percentage. And I an inclined to believe that the CP was perhaps still is one of the best thing the SBC ever had. And that the fragmented (for lack of a better word coming to mind) fundraising mechanisms In both the ABC-USA and CBF iis a major hindrance to our service in the Kingdom. Some in both of ABC and CBF rightly remind me that what we have is closer to the "original" Baptist Historical "societal system". And I say that it seems to be, but is it better? I believe some of us where wrong when we where in the SBC to allow dollar amounts and or percentages of church giving to have become the primary criteria for selecting leadership within associations, states and other geographic designations and the national organization.

Now here me clearly please. I did not and do not support the fundamentalist takeover of the old SBC, It stinks of partisan politics but I do have an idea that we spend far too much energy rehashing it and not enough on improving what we have.

[Gene Scarborough]

"The obvious," for me, Ed, is "Do as I say and not as I do" NEVER works for long.

Most every student graduating and being ordained aspires to the biggest and best---sometimes not caring about God's Will in it.

The older any group gets, the more entrenched become the descendents and followers of the generation before. Often their "success" depends more on who they know and what show they give over actual production of spiritual zeal and missionary support. Remember Paul's warning against the Apollos and others factions = "I am of Christ" works better.

The ONLY real reason Baptists ever got together was to have a big theological fight or put it behind and support Missionaries. Foot washing is seldom on the agenda. On far too many occasions fighting trumps missions. Even on the mission field you have certain ones wanting to be the President of the Mission on a local level---or some kind of highly paid / well expense-accounted / Executive.

Jesus said something about "he who would be greatest must be least" that is about the first page of their Bible discarded and folded for a spit wad at some competitor---or paper to use for hanging a gun target.

[Gene Scarborough]

Georgia Baptist Convention makes severe Staff cuts:



Georgia was one of the first deep south conventions taken over by the changes. Jack Harwell was fired and started Baptists Today. Mohler ultimately replaced him on his way up under watchcare of the CR leadership. His ultimate reward was the Presidency of SBTS.

In my view Geoergia is a state where the influence of NOBTS / SBTS / SEBTS pretty much rule with MWBTS mixed in. It is big and has large churches. It is a strong mix of volitile differences of opinion.

The change away from cooperative missions is hitting it hardest. Large churches are doing their own thing with missions and their own mission teams going here and yonder.

Is the day of large-scale cooperative mission efforts coming to and end?

[Sandy]

It is unfortunate for those who are being terminated, and I certainly hope there is some assistance in place to help them land on their feet and continue to serve in ministry. The BGCT has been going through this for years, now, and it isn't easy.

Even way back in the 70's, I had college professors who were honest enough to put forth the difficulties encountered by those who made the move from local church ministry to denominational entity ministry, either on the state convention level, or in the SBC. Conventional wisdom taught students to "hitch their wagon" to someone's train that had an inside track to the executive and management level of convention life. I watched several classmates "ride the train" into high dollar denominational jobs only to find themselves on the outside looking for something else to do when their train derailed and a new group of insiders came along with their own entourage, and their own "train" to plug in.

I've more or less always held the opinion that Southern Baptist denominational entities, state conventions and even the executive headquarters were monstrously overstaffed, and did not operate efficiently, or effectively for that matter. I've known too many people who "knew someone" who helped them into a convention-related position from a trustee seat or a position of influence, and in some cases, have been aware of jobs that were "created" for certain pastors' children. It would be my guess, just from observation and without doing any in-depth research, that the SBC and the state conventions could cut their staff by half and not see any appreciable difference in the functioning of the churches or their cooperative ministries.

[Dave Roberts]

[William Thornton]

If you pay attention by reading my blog you would know some things about the GBC:



The deep staff cuts and budget declines have only indirect connection to the Conservative Resurgence. You could make the point that moderate GBC churches have just stopped participating and to a significant degree stopped giving but that is very old news.

The decline of the last four years is as a result of the economy and the general trend towards lower CP percentages.

The GBC has enormous debt service payments on their sparkling HQ building, built just prior to the meltdown. Nothing can be done about that now. The years of soaring budgets saw the GBC do what institutions do, hire more and more people. All that is gone.

Gene, you are two decades behind on the GBC. Harwell has been gone almost a quarter century. There hasn't been any con/mod debate pr contested election at the GBC for years and years. Good folks like Neil here and John Pierce would confirm this, I think.

You should come and visit and I'd bring you up to date. If you ever get down this way, I wwould at least appreciate a call and maybe we could do some bbq.

[For the record, the GBC staff cuts really isn't a CR item but would be fine in its own topic.]

[Neil Heath]

Thanks for some news on the cuts, Gene and William. I heard about them last week but had not seen anything in print. I would like very much to know names of those let go if anyone hears more. PM me if you'd rather not post them. I'm sure I know some of them. The one from Collegiate Ministries is a good guy. Do pray for those now unemployed. It's not a good time to hunt for a new position in ministry.

[Gene Scarborough]

William---

Thanks for the invite to bbq---there is a great one in Snellville not far from where we usually stay. My absolute favorite is the Hickory House with several spots around town and one near the Rehoboth Baptist church. When we visit these days it's to check on my 93 year old mother in failing health. She will be 94 in May.

While you think the CR is a past issue not having to do with the current cut-backs, I think it is a direct result of deserting a collegial partnership in support of missions on a state level. My last real relationship to GA Baptists was in the 80's as I pastored the Noonday Baptist Church just south of Johnny Hunt's mega at Woodstock.

Whether larger churches choose SBC / CBF / or invite members to direct their giving between the 2, more big churches are doing their own thing under their own control rather than just giving to cooperative missions and trusting the larger body to do things right and efficient. That is a sorrow of mistrust to me in my current NC residence and the same is true of SC where I served more total years and was deeply involved in SCBSC activities and committees.

I have seen exactly what Sandy described as "bailout positions" given to buddies in trouble at a local church. Seldom have I seen a special position created just for such, but I have known many convention employees who were doing good when they would prefer the local church. Stability used to be a good side of convention employment.

I would just like to see people calling themselves "Baptist" allowing for autonomy to unite us rather than theology and friendship to separate us.

Also the ornate Convention Building they now have was another adventure in "pretty" just like the new HMB headquarters building. In the good days "practicality" ruled and buildings were just a place where you had an office when the real headquarters was being in a car and leading conferences among the churches and associations.

[Sandy]

Could the drop off in GBC's budget, and in the need for a big staff, be the result of the pledge made by state conventions over the past decade to up the amount forwarded to the SBC to a 50/50 split, under the banner of international missions being what Southern Baptists are all about? I know that several state conventions have made cutbacks in order for that to take place.

[Stephen Fox]

Let me know when you guys have lunch and if funds allow I may join you. Snellville is in striking range, but would be better if we could meet in Newnan at Sprayberry's

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

I think you have a major point!!!!