The Grand SBC Takeover/Resurgence Thread

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

The demands of buildings and staff in local churches might be rethought as well. Too often people want to "buy their religion and hire the preacher and staff to do it for them---not in the picture for Jesus!

Also, I think many take their building for their idol and must outshine the other churches in town--again, not in the picture for Jesus. He had very little for the Temple and Pharisees.

I guess it's just the preponderence of mankind to build for himself a gold idol!

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

A reply to Gene Scarborough, RE his comment on the thread about Midwestern Seminary. Since this response is related to his bringing up the Lolley departure at Southeastern, I thought I would post it in this thread, and link this post to it.

http://www.baptistbanner.org/Subarchive ... 20duck.htm

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

I am long familiar with Pullen Memorial per my position as Director of Juvenile Rehabilitation with the Raleigh Baptist Association 1968-70.

You have picked one of the "maverick" chuches in Raleigh to make your point. From Finlater to Siler this church has always taken a "piss them off" position in most things Baptist.

I didn't care for them and don't blame you for the same!

HOWEVER---when we USED TO believe in Automony, they could do their thing and I could care less. If they chose to do things totally in the face of things I didn't like---as long as they wanted to support NC missions and my ministry with the Raleigh Baptist Association to the Juvenile Court of Wake County---who cares!

They did. I rejoiced in it. I'm not their judge. We did a far better job of ministry to Raleigh working together than doing what you want to do with this stupid statement (in my view, of course)!

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

You and I share a vastly different view of graduate level education.

First, any student should have enough brain power to be able to think and evaluate. For me, a good education involves exposure to "all things theological." That is exactly what I got at SEBTS 1967-70. In fact, I didn't get enough of it! Just because a professor exposed us to variant views, didn't mean he believed it. It wasn't SS nor should it ever be, in my view.

Just because Mahan Siler taught at SEBTS, it in no way meant his somewhat "different" view on things ruled the day! Best I recall he taught in the Pastoral Care area of the curriculum. One of the purposes under Lolley was to have some variance in Faculty, but a sense of being colleagues.

I am interested if you have a problem with it not being a "cookie cutter" school?

It was far from being "liberal" as were all SBC seminaries. The fake accusation was stupid people only wanting their stupidity taught and replicated by graduates. This is INDOCTRINATION as opposed to EDUCATION!

[Sandy]

Southeastern isn't a "cookie cutter" school now. Looking at the diversity of educational and spiritual backgrounds of its current faculty, it is clear that there are plenty of perspectives taught in its classrooms. A seminary doesn't have to depart from Biblical foundations in order to "expose" its students to "variant" views. There are variant views of Christian faith and practice, and there are variant views that are not Christian at all, and I don't think it is all that fine a line between them. The curriculum objectives of a seminary education that is being true to and consistent with Biblical Christianity incorporate the truths of scripture and filter out untruth that arises from the kind of humanism that Mahan Siler and his ilk brought into the classroom. Students have plenty of exposure to the world and its wisdom everywhere they look outside the classroom, and many of them got a good dose of it in their college experience. You don't need a professor in a seminary class telling you the Bible has errors and taking it upon himself to be the authority in life to have a solid graduate school experience.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

I strongly differ with you on the nature of SEBTS now vs. what it was for my 1967-70 student days and throughout the Lolley Administration. During 1986- I lived within 45 minutes of the campus at Rocky Mount. My work with Ministers Life took me there on a regular basis. I was more than close during the trying and tension-filled days of the change. It was the first school to receive it's takeover.

From my student time forward, I am not aware of the "evil liberals" corrupting innocent students as you depict. Perhaps I missed something---so I welcome your run-down of exactly who were the culprits corrupting students, if you please.

I am most aware of, for example, Dr. Leo Green who thrilled all the conservative students with his lectures and most of his lectures were turned into a good Sermon for Sunday by many of them. The main points always alliterated so people could remember them more easy.

I had breakfast this week with a Church of Christ pastor was was there 7 years after me. We were talking of Professors we shared. He is also a member of the NC House of Represenetatives and noted for his conservitism politically here. We talked of some 5 Professors we both appreciated and who always remained true to their belief that the Bible is God's Word.

I never heard a single professor say the Bible was "just a book" or a "fake" or "unreliable." Such declarations---even if they were made---would have only made me question where such false material could come from. After all, I have been a Christian since age 8 / conservative SBC preacher's kid / reached the top rank in R.A.'s / met all the Executives of the HMB where my father worked as well as GBC and Atlanta Baptist Association which co-sponsored his pioneering work as the first Director of Juvenile Rehabilitation for the SBC!

I had Drs. Dick Hall / Bill Lancaster / Monroe Swilley / Russell Dilday / all were on my Ordaination Council at Decatur FBC in the spring of 1970 as I requested ordaination at the end of my student days at SEBTS. Hall was a noted conservative and the others were solid SBC leaders and Pastors. Not a single one was trying to deprive me of my belief in the Bible and would not have granted ordaination had I expressed such.

How about giving us a list of the "liberals" at SEBTS during the Lolley Administration---if you please!

gives you a link which describes the whole thing well. Perhaps it will help you in your research of things you might not know.

[Gene Scarborough]

[KeithE]

I have not thrown in my 2 cents into this post (other than to quote A Hill to Die On, to help settle whether Pressler was ever a Presbyterian - he wasn't).

I joined the SBC in 1986 with high hopes that it would soon split into a more Moderate camp (that I was eager to join in on) and the Conservative camp (which I saw as a close kin to the Pharaism Jesus so strongly opposed). The Weatherly Heights BC pastor (G. Todd Wilson) impressed me with an article in the paper advocating for Women in Ministry, we visited (against my wife’s skepticism of Baptists being too “rule-oriented for adults"), soon joined, and the church has been very good for us for 25 years. What I liked about Baptists was their clear-cut sense of individual responsibility before God (as opposed to the Calvinism I was accustomed to in the Presbyterian churches (right and left) and churches- my home denomination).

I wish the two sides would simply stop arguing and go their separate ways. I’m still hoping for a formal separation.

In the Moderate camp, I would hope we would emphasize three things more thoroughly than we do:
1) celebrate Anabaptist history and principles as being our primary heritage somewhat more so that Smythe and Helwys
2) focus on accountability for deeper spiritual growth among members
3) work to bring on the Kingdom (social justice) since God is no doubt weeping about the injustices/poverty/war/environmental degradation of this world.

But these are minor suggestions that the Moderate Baptists already do some of.

I’ll let the SBC go their own way.

Numbers do not concern me. Pleasing God individually and collectively does.

[Gene Scarborough]