Shorter College chills the Air

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

But, Tim, with the BFM2K Southern Baptists do have a creed. When the statement defines itself as "an instrument of doctrinal accountability," to my understanding of theology, that is synonymous with a creed.

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

Yeah, thanks, Dave, for returning us to the topic. When I have figured out what to say in my initial posts (hopefully later today, but certainly by Sunday) I'll start two new topics: Where does the Bible mention the Bible? and The Bible and Alcohol. (Of course, I'll point out that the word "alcohol" is actually of Islamic origin; the concept was foreign to the biblical authors' understanding of the world.) And if I have anything to say really pertinent to Shorter that hasn't already been said, I'll say it here.

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Both great ideas and I will look forward to your topics.

I am gladdened to know your overcame an alcohol problem but have not descended to say, "If it wasn't there I would never have 'sinned.'"

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Haruo]

[KeithE]

[Gene Scarborough]

Gentlemen----

I am a direct observer of the mess at SEBTS and NCBSC. While you may argue that BF&M 2000 is not a creed, the grief and misery put on Randall Lolley et al PROVES how it has been used to bleed the jugular veins of free and faithful Baptists who are far from "liberal!" My beloved SEBTS is a shadow of its former self and the stupidity being taught there these days is an abomination!

The people of CBF have decided to return to our SBC roots of AUTONOMY!

In the days when we majored on misssions and minored on theological nit-picking we developed the largest group of mission-supporting Christians outside the Roman Catholic church. THAT, my friends, is past history and what is left now is an embarassment to those of us who loved being Southern Baptist in our days of freedom and intelligence!

The at Shorter is just another phase of TAKEOVER! I feel sorry for the professors and staff enduring the pain and suffering! Whenever Paige Patterson shows his face, there will be dead bodies left in the aftermath of his steamroller!

[Haruo]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

The DOM is ALWAYS hired by the local churches he serves. By and large they tend to be managers without dictating to the churches what to do.

Once the State Conventions have been taken over by conservatives, they are now focusing on the Associations in NC. We have had some 2 incidences where the Association has become a battleground. It seems to never end!

As long as SEBTS is pumping preacher into NC and VA the same will be the case. They are taught the concept of a "king pastor" calling the shots in his local church. In addition, they are pumped with the idea that anything short of BF&M 2000 is an abomination.

I'm tired of the bull. Many churches in NC are tired of it. CBF is growing probably the fastest in NC as any other state. Even the conservative outlook of eastern NC is not fooled when it comes to AUTONOMY!!!!

[Tim Bonney]

[Neil Heath]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

Sorry Sandy. I do remember the "Messenger" term now that you mention it. ABC Churches send delegates. But they are generally not instructed delegates. They also vote their conscience. And of course there are advantages and disadvantages to any denominations polity. I've grown to prefer an episcopal system to a congregational system. And for me that has as much to do with the fact that churches, pastors, and denominational leaders all live under the same rules.

[Dave Roberts]

I'm not certain about how colleges are structured in GA. In many states, they college is actually held by the trustees of the college in order to meet state incorporation laws. The choice of trustees then becomes the choice of who will control the institution. The rights of trustees to take an action and the wisdom to taking that action are two entirely different things. As far as I know, Shorter trustees have the legal right to take whatever actions they deem best for the incorporated entity. What seems to be in debate here is the wisdom of their actions for the long term health of the institution.

BTW, after I left that church, they finally got enough of the associational DOM and withdrew from the association. He was also a member of that congregation, and the church urged him to locate his membership elsewhere. The final nail came when he tried to tell the church who it had to call for pastor after I left. They have gotten along just fine relating directly to the BGAV without membership in a local association. Of course, it was embarrassing to the association since that was the county seat First Baptist at the center of the assocation's territory.

[Gene Scarborough]

In GA, SC, and NC where I had personal pastoral and rearing experiences, I am sure any corporation has Trustees who have the duty to administer it under state rules of incorporation. These Corporations operate under the Secretary of State in each case. Any member of the corporation has a right to speak with the Trustees and expect them to operate their trust with respect for those who fund it.

In all 3 states I have witnessed how every 3-5 years an educational institution gets on target for some angry small church pastor to criticize things like dancing / drinking / what is taught /etc. Just like a local Baptist church, the system can turn from cooperative to combative in an instant. Everyone having a say is as dangerous as a system locked up so tight there is little or no room for diversity.

Upon reflecting on a lifetime of ministry, I like the middle-road usually taken by the UMC. They are divided by Districts with a District Superintendant appointed to look after the churches and assign the new ministers to them. Each church property is owned by the Denomination and the ultimate power could be to tell a congregation or members to leave if they don't like the system. Wiser heads than the local church members deal with pastoral assignment and it gives far more stability than the Baptist independence and confusion!

I note that in the last 40 years the Methodist system has a Congregational Committee working with the Pastor and DS over how long that pastor stays. Thankfully, the pastor has protection against some local crazy who wants nothing but war and dissension. That is what usually brings turmoil to a Baptist Church or Association. All it takes is one hot head to turn fellowship into warfare! Ultimately, the votes at the annual meeting decide what goes at the Baptist level. No one, not even the locals usually understand the politics involved in Baptistland.

I won't elongate this comment at the moment. Suffice it to say my own father was a local pastor who finished the last 20 years of ministry as the first Director of Juvenile Rehabilitation for the Atlanta Baptist Association / HMB as well as the Associate DOM of the Atlanta Association. He dealt with the craziness of the local church and then the Association. There were some definite crazies along the way of his ministry striving for growth and harmony in a system bent to turmoil.

[Tim Bonney]

The concern that is being expressed is a denominational employee (DOM in this case) taking on more authority than belongs to them. As Gene has said a Methodist District Superintendent has authority over her/his churches and pastors. That isn't supposed to be the case with a DOM. (BTW Gene, the Bishop appoints pastors in consultation with the DS. The DS generally doesn't have appointive power. Any ideas they have for appointment have to be approved by the Bishop)

But we are getting way off topic from Shorter's issues. As has been said above the college Trustees have the right to set the rules. The question really being asked is was their decision a good decision for their school. Is the message being projected here that Southern Baptists and their schools have as a primary focus being anti-gay teatotallers? Is that really the top theological prorities of the school? Aren't both of these really minor theological issues in a Biblical scheme of things?

[Gene Scarborough]

Tim---

Thanks for the fine tuning of my description. Most educational.

I think you are right on target with the Shorter / Truett-McConnel image. We used to look over to Greenville, SC, for the Bob Jones touch. I think they now have a branch in Atlanta.

Now it is being joined by these 2 GBC schools so Baptists in GA don't have a caring and understanding view from the gay community. You can object to their lifestyle without being obnoxious and overbearing! As daddy used to say, "You never draw flies with vinegar!" Any hope of ministry and help will come ONLY if we are willing to get off our narrow soapbox having little to do with the majority of Christ's teachings!

Our Seminaries are now the same to my chagrin. If you wanted Falwell's Liberty University, you could go there. If you wanted a well-rounded education it used to be found at one of the Seminaries owned by the SBC. My talks with so many SEBTS students indicated they came from Bob Jones / LIberty / etc. being told they would not now be "corrupted" at SEBTS.

Indoctrinated----YES / Educated well---NO!!!!!