Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby KeithE » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:49 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Seems they are implying that only they are Great Commission Baptist. More SBC arrogance


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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:50 am

I'm underwhelmed by the recommendation and will blog about it in a few days.

While I understand that there are not a few here who have some ire at the SBC, it's a stretch to make something sinister or arrogant out of the choice of GCB as the new a/k/a for the SBC. "Great Commission" is merely the favored phrase of the last few years, sort of like "Bold Mission" was thirty years ago.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:52 am

Seems an exercise of rearranging the deck chairs. I don't see that either helping or hurting the SBC. It's what's on the inside that will count.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:05 am

Ed: It is time to change the sign at our building. I am thinking of putting putting up ABC -USA are decedents of the original Great Commission Baptist


Ed: And William I truly wish I thought you where right but Bold Mission was a call to "our own" to get about what Jesus had commanded. Here they are claiming to be a convention of something that few of their churches really are. Do you really think they are not attempting to position themselves as different than "other Baptist".

I am not real sure what to do, because I am angry about this. Will be meeting at noon with a group of ABC pastors maybe they will cool me off. :brick:

The name has a redundancy that bothers me. And as I suggested in my prior post I see it as a slap in the face of all other Baptist and I am reluctant to turn the other cheek.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Gene Scarborough » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:19 am

William---

I will look forward to more details of your thinking about the proposed name change.

I think, at their core, the SBC knows it is in bad trouble and has not distinguished itself after kicking out all the "evil moderates." They have continued their actions of fussing and fighting. They have had more than enough scandals over use of mission money.

The change is far in the past now and, as I said long ago: "You stole the bus, now put the gas in the tank!"
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:43 am

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: It is time to change the sign at our building. I am thinking of putting putting up ABC -USA are decedents of the original Great Commission Baptist


Ed: And William I truly wish I thought you where right but Bold Mission was a call to "our own" to get about what Jesus had commanded. Here they are claiming to be a convention of something that few of their churches really are. Do you really think they are not attempting to position themselves as different than "other Baptist".

I am not real sure what to do, because I am angry about this. Will be meeting at noon with a group of ABC pastors maybe they will cool me off. :brick:

The name has a redundancy that bothers me. And as I suggested in my prior post I see it as a slap in the face of all other Baptist and I am reluctant to turn the other cheek.


Get a grip, Ed. This isn't about you or other Baptists. It is mainly an attempt to ameliorate negative opinions of SOUTHERN Baptists.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Ed Pettibone » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:55 am

William Thornton wrote:
Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: It is time to change the sign at our building. I am thinking of putting putting up ABC -USA are decedents of the original Great Commission Baptist


Ed: And William I truly wish I thought you where right but Bold Mission was a call to "our own" to get about what Jesus had commanded. Here they are claiming to be a convention of something that few of their churches really are. Do you really think they are not attempting to position themselves as different than "other Baptist".

I am not real sure what to do, because I am angry about this. Will be meeting at noon with a group of ABC pastors maybe they will cool me off. :brick:

The name has a redundancy that bothers me. And as I suggested in my prior post I see it as a slap in the face of all other Baptist and I am reluctant to turn the other cheek.


Get a grip, Ed. This isn't about you or other Baptists. It is mainly an attempt to ameliorate negative opinions of SOUTHERN Baptists.


Ed: Excuse me William but I think you are being naive, and that isn't generally you. So we are on different sides of the fence again :wave:
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Haruo » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:57 am

I don't assume that "American Baptist Convention >> Churches" was adopted in an effort to minimize or deny the Americanness of dozens of other Baptist groups in the USA, so on simple Golden Rule grounds I have to hold off on assuming that "Great Commission Baptists" is intended to disparage the mission work of ABC, or even CBF/Alliance.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Gene Scarborough » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:52 pm

Has there been any explaination of why "Great Commission" is being used as opposed to some other term?

Baptist alone covers a lot of territory and is used all around the world for people who believe in immersion. Sometimes it refers to somewhat agitating "outside the mainstream" people who can tell you more about what they are against then what they are for.

As I grew up, there was a sense of spiritual superiority to other kinds of Christians. One study course even cited how we could trace ourselves to John the Baptist. I was a teenager and that really gave me a thrill of superiority.

Are we a bunch of inferiority complex people seeking higher ground since the Episcopalians seem to own the cotton mills and other rich stuff? My daddy warned the worst Baptist churches could usually be run by mill workers who were told what to do during the week and then could put their hatred of leadership on the Preacher.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:40 pm

"Great Commission" was used, I speculate, because it is the current, favored buzz phrase, a la "Great Commission Resurgence."

I'll explain it all to you Thursday on my blog in blinding bursts of brilliant insight along with phenomenally clever commentary.
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Bryant Wright

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:34 pm

Was nominated to Honor Alumnus at University of S.C. He is dropping the ball on his watch not to confront the world of SBC Fundamentalism as portrayed in the www.tnr.com Mark Noll review of God's Own Party and Bible Belt to Sunbelt.

Karl Rove is orchestrating the SBC through Richard Land for Pressler's Oil Interests to the tune of 13 million dollars. Six oilmen from Houston put up that much money for Rove's American Crossraods and a name change want fix that; and any other whitewashing of the SBC of the last 40 years stands in the Damnnation Judgment of a Just and All Mighty God

I believe that; More later.
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My comment in Spartanburg paper

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:26 pm

To their ABP story which I imagine to have originated in the Tennessean:

Don Wilton and Carolina grad Bryant Wright have dropped the ball with the SBC. Name Change will not fix the serious problems of SBC fundamentalism most recently revealed in Giberson and Stephens The Anointed. The SBC has become a playrgroud for the Devil through the avenue of Karl Rove's American Crossroads Superpac, and the wiley Richard Land of SBC ERLC who is funded by SBC Cooperative Program. You must do the remedial reading to understand this. For starters in addition to Anointed see the Mark Noll Review of Williams and Dochuk in the New Republic, May or June print issue 2011. It is a great betrayal of the best of the Baptist witness as Jeff Rogers outlined in a great 90's lecture at Furman in the Series What Really Matters; an illegitimate legacy of Truett, Marney and Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Re: My comment in Spartanburg paper

Postby William Thornton » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:55 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:To their ABP story which I imagine to have originated in the Tennessean:

Don Wilton and Carolina grad Bryant Wright have dropped the ball with the SBC. Name Change will not fix the serious problems of SBC fundamentalism most recently revealed in Giberson and Stephens The Anointed. The SBC has become a playrgroud for the Devil through the avenue of Karl Rove's American Crossroads Superpac, and the wiley Richard Land of SBC ERLC who is funded by SBC Cooperative Program. You must do the remedial reading to understand this. For starters in addition to Anointed see the Mark Noll Review of Williams and Dochuk in the New Republic, May or June print issue 2011. It is a great betrayal of the best of the Baptist witness as Jeff Rogers outlined in a great 90's lecture at Furman in the Series What Really Matters; an illegitimate legacy of Truett, Marney and Martin Luther King, Jr.


Stephen, My old daily, the SHJ is fine but I have an article up on Forbes.com now and have been waiting for your comment on it. :wink:
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Thornton and Scott

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:10 pm

Two of the most respected bloggers left in the SBC

Dr. Thornton, I could not find your thoughts at Forbes.

I did comment on Howell's blog on the name change.

http://fromlaw2grace.com/2012/02/20/sbc ... ment-10426

Here is a name for you. Larry McCarthy. With me look for Karl Rove's and Richard Land's take on him :lol: It's not gonna happen and that is the travesty of the SBC Name Change.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2012 ... ntPage=all

Fodder for this thread and deserving of it's own discussion in Public Policy Forum. Richard Land may be the Anti Christ if you hold him up to Marilyn Robinson's take on Bonhoeffer. Between the foolishness of Timothy George's Judson Lecture and Richard Land's War on Faith with Sean Hannity last Friday night, something is stinking badly in the world of Southern Baptists
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Some Real Deal Analysis at RD.org

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:31 pm

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... onvention/

Harvey is looped in with Dan Williams, and Steven Miller and Joe Crespino.

Now we're gettin to the heart of this name change.

And spot on.

If Heaven ain't a lot Like Dixie, Pressler and Nelson Price don't want to go
If they don't have folks of color serving
And the Grand Ole Opry
Like they do in Tennessedamnsee
They just as soon stay home.

No disrespect to the Grand Ole Opry; just happens to be part of the Hank Jr. song.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:14 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:The real Great Commission was: "Love one another as God loves us."


There are three great sayings of Jesus that are guides to the church -

1. The Great Commission - Make disciples of all nations and baptize them

2. The Great Commandment - Love one another

3. The Great Criterion - As you have done it unto the least of these you have done it unto me.

The problem with the emphasis on the Great Commission alone is that it ignores Jesus three fold message of grace and love.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:34 am

Tim---

I like the way you organized the basics of following Christ! It is hard, but simple.

Is this part of the Methodist tenants of the faith required of each ordained clergy for acceptance?

For Baptists is has been based on some "belief" rather than some activity of following and living. Our stuff pales in comparison to the depth and wisdom of what you cite.

The simple basics I was taught in Baptistland were: Baptism by immersion / Bible is God's Word / Jesus is our criterion of faith / we band together in giving to the Cooperative Program / Matthew 28:19-20 is our marching order.

Autonomy was our basis of working together despite differences on fine points of theology and local church practice. Each church operated as it chose by majority vote of the congregation. No entity other than the local church could tell anyone what to do. If someone did not wish to cooperate at the local level, there was little any Pastor could do to make them. On rare occasions a church might quietly invite someone to leave. It was unheard of to "church" a member---that is to hold a formal church conference with charges of offense worthy of forcing them out or censuring them for immoral conduct.

In old frontier days, Baptist churches served as a basis of social conduct and control. Absent formal law enforcement and courts, it was assumed a person "in good standing" at his Baptist church was a moral person. Churches held a monthly or quarterly Conference to deal with church business in a formal way. Any church which has old minutes to read shows a practice of calling any offensive member before the church to answer formal charges and be submitted to a vote over their membership. If they failed to show, then a committee of 3 men was sent out to meet with them and bring back a report as to whether they had violated the acceptable conduct as a member. Such actions ended with a formal vote to either kick them out or keep them.

One case I found at the Noonday Baptist Church (dates back to 1833) I pastored involved a lady accused of violating their church faith. She was interviewed by the committe of 3 which brought back this report: "Sister Smith has, indeed, lost her faith---she has become a Methodist!"

A church letter was the key to joining another congregation of Baptists. It stated that the person was "in good standing" with the church he was leaving. A "statement of good standing" was acceptable should the individual not have a formal letter of membership with them. Otherwise a person could join by "Profession of Faith" and be baptized into membership. In many churches the doors of the church were open only during the Revival Meeting in the Spring or Fall.

The deal was more social than theological. Pre-Sunday School literature, most churches just used the Bible as the basis for their faith and guidance. Without formal education, few Pastors or church members had much theological training. Many of the sermons and theologies were simply straight from the Pastor who was thought to be the expert interpreter. There was great suspicion in the average church of anyone "educated out of true faith." You just got your call / announced it to the church / got reviewed and ordained by the local church. A few times the local Association ordained ministers. There was no real requirement beyond being "called by God." The result was a wide range of conservative views on religion and the worst thing could be said against a minister was that he was liberal and ungodly as a result. If a church became crossed with its Pastor, he could be voted out. Many church had an "annual call" which meant each year the Pastor got a vote of confidence to stay or leave. Many Pastors stayed a year or 2 and moved around. The well-liked ones often came back 2-3 times over the years of ministry in the same area.

I hope this gives a good background of "Baptist in the South" approaches. Other parts of the country had slightly different practices. Up north there was more respect for formal education. In the South, rural churches tended to whoop and shout while, in the big cities like Atlanta or Charlston, they went so far as to have robed clergy, liturgy, even a split chancel. Most state conventions established some school for higher education. Mercer was for GA / Furman was for SC / Wake Forest was for NC in the 3 states I have served and lived.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby KeithE » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:41 am

KeithE wrote:Well some action may be taken soon. My wife who is a SBC church secretary/financial keeper got word of this last week and with all that was going on she did not tell me until just now. I googled and came up with this Wash Post article about a Nashville Panel recommendation today.

Panel recommends new name - Southern Baptist Convention: Great Commission Baptists. Churches who do not want the regional flavor in the name or some of the negatives to the denomination can use "Great Commission Baptist"; those that want the historic connection can keep the SBC name. Legal problems can be avoided by keeping the SBC part, or so they say.

Executive Committee to discuss tomorrow (Tuesday).

Just to bring this up to date - Here’s what the Executive Committee said (reportedly) on Tuesday
Name Change is Optional

This is really no different than what the Panel said on Monday - name change is optional. Perhaps it clarifies that the name is not an add-on as in “Southern Baptist Convention - Great Commission Baptist”, but instead churches are free to call themselves either “Southern Baptists” or “Great Commission Baptists” as they see fit. This is really no different than current practice where churches can already name themselves and still be part of the SBC. Many SBC affiliated churches call themselves “X Community Church” right now.

I agree with what Timothy said on 10/1/11 that the name change is:
substatially it is a marketting thing rather than a substance thing.


But motivations can be different for differing people. I think some (perhaps many) have in mind a re-emphasis on evangelization with the suggested name change of “Great Commission Baptists”. I do not think arrogance (we are better than all you unevangelistic folk out there) is a major factor in the suggested name change.

Anyway, as Dave Roberts says:
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:54 am

As I read USA Today, they say that the name won't change but churches can add the defining phrase, "Great Commission Baptists." Interesting, but I have no idea what that means down at Bear Swamp or Back Swamp Baptist Churches.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:39 am

Gene Scarborough wrote:Tim---

I like the way you organized the basics of following Christ! It is hard, but simple.

Is this part of the Methodist tenants of the faith required of each ordained clergy for acceptance?


No the first time I heard it described that way was buy Dr. Aisand Wright-Riggins the Director of the ABC Home Mission Societies.

But I do believe the description fits UMC theology as well. United Methodists believe that salvation is much more than just a single act of justification. Following our acceptance of Christ we enter a life long process of sanctification. United Methodists are much more likely to say "I am being saved" than "I am (or was) saved."
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:46 am

Dave Roberts wrote:As I read USA Today, they say that the name won't change but churches can add the defining phrase, "Great Commission Baptists." Interesting, but I have no idea what that means down at Bear Swamp or Back Swamp Baptist Churches.


This may be for legal reasons as well as avoiding a fight over a name. For example for years and years the ABC International Ministries started its board meetings with "We now call to order the American Baptist Foreign Mission Society doing business as the Board of International Ministries."

In other words there is a value in keeping the legal name the same for bequests and other legal means but then you can "do business" under another moniker.

As to the proposed name, I think they did a good job of coming up with a name that sounds and awful lot like what "Full-Gospel" sounds like from Pentecostals. I think other Baptists may see it as a dig.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Tim Dahl » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:12 pm

This reminds me of when the General Baptist Convention of Texas made the informal name change to Texas Baptists. That still gives me the willies. As if we were the only Baptists in Texas!?
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:24 pm

Tim Dahl wrote:This reminds me of when the General Baptist Convention of Texas made the informal name change to Texas Baptists. That still gives me the willies. As if we were the only Baptists in Texas!?


Even moderates can make that mistake. :D I remember when the CBF related women in ministry group at Central Seminary named themselves "Baptist Women in Ministry" which kind of miffed some folks who were American Baptist women clergy and already had a American Baptist Women in Ministry organization of some kind. As you say, it sounded like they were saying that they were ALL the Baptist women clergy in the area and the area is quite largely American Baptist.
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:54 pm

Will there ever be a time Baptists aren't fussing and fighting about something RE-DICU-LUSS???? :? :oops: :wink:
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Re: Time to stop talking and start action on the SBC name change

Postby William Thornton » Wed Feb 22, 2012 7:59 pm

I ran across this especially insightful, witty, and brilliant piece on the name change:

Will GCB die a quiet death?
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