Talk About A Redneck

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Talk About A Redneck

Postby Alan Carter » Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:54 pm

Richard Land has to be the most homophobic Baptist redneck I have ever read about. I know plenty of gay people and they don't think anything like he claims they do. I wonder where he gets information that he is so convinced is right.

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6771/53/
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Tim Dahl » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:33 pm

Hey now! I know plenty of Rednecks, and they are nothing like Richard Land!!!

Just because someone likes living in the country, appreciates animals, being outdoors, and working with animal/plants/dirt(farming)/etc. doesn't mean that they are homophobic.

Now, apologize to Rednecks everywhere. They are nothing like Richard Land.

Actually, they are the people that would have stuck Richard Land in the locker at school. Land comes across kind of nerdy to me. ;)

On a more serious note, it seems that we've (hetero/Christian) already done a good job of grinding the meaning of marriage out of existence. If not, then why are the divorce rates of Christians so similar to non-Christians. Supposedly, (I've been unable to verify) there was Newsweek article in 2010 that says the divorce rate for Pastors is the same as the general population. Seriously, as hetero-christian people, we are our own worse enemies (imo).

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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby ET » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:33 pm

See the previous post for evidence of Land's comments. The term "homophobic". Just what does that mean? It really doesn't matter, because it's used to marginalize anyone who disagrees with the acceptance of homosexual behavior as being as valid as heterosexual behavior. It matters not how one treats homosexuals. The term is assigned to you based solely on the fact of your opposition. If you disagree with redefining a thousands-year old human institution from male-female to something else, then you're "homophobic". The substance of reasoning is not relevant. The fact that someone does not give their stamp of approval on another's behavior makes one "homophobic", no matter the reason.

News articles, television shows and other media provide too many examples to list.
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Alan Carter » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:36 am

My most sincere apologies to all rednecks everywhere. I never actually meant to include them with a homophobe--and besides that, some of them are my relatives.
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Haruo » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:30 am

Homophobes are sinners just like gays are. The insidious thing about all of this, on both sides, is the sneaky way it tries to get you to treat sinners (of whatever stripe) as human beings just like the rest of us, instead of a protected classes, which makes them sound more like spotted owls or morphine derivatives, which are surely more like what Jesus wants us to view them as...
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Haruo » Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:31 am

Or yes, rednecks, I'm sure the Endangered Species Act could be stretched to cover them, too.
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Land

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:43 pm

I'm not one to come to defense of Richard Land. His dissembling to Stan Hastey of the Alliance of Baptists in 1982 put him in the wrong column for me long time ago.

Still Alan Carter may be quick to the punch here. But his calculation Foy Valentine's legacy with the monthly Christian Ethics Today could be as suspect as Land.

Google the most recent issue and read the discussion there; and come back and tell me how it is okay for a roughly CBF publication to entertain some views very close to Land, but not okay for Land to espouse them
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:07 am

Foxy,

I read the CET issue (you referring to Howard Batson's response to the original pro-gay article by the 95-year old minister whose name I forget?).

I'm not sure how Batson was like Land.

Land's rhetoric has become increasingly extreme in recent years and he's developed a penchant for making assertions that can't be substantiated. He'll employ offensive language till his buddy Abe Foxman asks him to apologize. Land apologizes and months later does the same routine again.

To be a guy who has sold himself as a pro-racial equality fella who was always progressive on the issue unlike many of his older conservative brethren - Land sure has revealed himself to be a guy with a penchant for insensitive comments and drawing inappropriate analogies that tick off both Jews (see his Nazi references) and African-Americans (see his slavery references) and rejecting the civil rights efforts of racial minorities at every turn beginning with civil rights legislation in the 1980s.

His anti-gay rhetoric is the next wave for Land.
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Sandy » Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:37 am

For Stephen, it is more the issue than the person. He sees CBF as having a more liberal view on social issues because he does, and because the organization itself is a response to the conservative resurgence in the SBC. Therefore, if Richard Land is "homophobic" or "anti-homosexual," CBF leaders must take the opposite position. Of course, it is a long distance between not believing that God did not intend for two individuals of the same gender to be involved in a marriage relationship, or that the sexual acts between them are sinful, and being "homophobic" and the assertion that Land is such is ridiculous and baseless. Richard Land is a lot of things, and at his worst when it comes to secular politics, but he's not a homophobe.

It would not surprise me to discover that most CBF leaders, and most members of CBF churches, believe that homosexuality is a sin. Their response to individuals in their churches who are involved in it may, in some cases, be different than the typical Southern Baptist church response would be, but CBF is on record as being opposed to affirming homosexual behavior, and has discovered that it doesn't get along well with partnering organizations that do.
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Tim Dahl » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:15 am

Lee brings up a good point, imo.
Sandy wrote:It would not surprise me to discover that most CBF leaders, and most members of CBF churches, believe that homosexuality is a sin. Their response to individuals in their churches who are involved in it may, in some cases, be different than the typical Southern Baptist church response would be, but CBF is on record as being opposed to affirming homosexual behavior, and has discovered that it doesn't get along well with partnering organizations that do.


The CBF puts a great deal of emphasis upon local church autonomy. Churches are free to believe whatever they want about homosexuality. But, that does not mean that the CBF is necessarily pro-homosexuality, nor even ambivalent about the issue.

If you go to their FAQ page, they have a statement about homosexuality.

Here it is if you don't want to click on the link:

In 2000, the Fellowship’s national coordinating council did pass a personnel and administrative funding policy, which applies only to the CBF organization – not partnering churches. It states:

As Baptist Christians, we believe that the foundation of a Christian sexual ethic is faithfulness in marriage between a man and a woman and celibacy in singleness. We also believe in the love and grace of God for all people, both for those who live by this understanding of the biblical standard and those who do not. We treasure the freedom of individual conscience and the autonomy of the local church, and we also believe that congregational leaders should be persons of moral integrity whose lives exemplify the highest standards of Christian conduct and character.
Because of this organizational value, the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship does not allow for the expenditure of funds for organizations or causes that condone, advocate or affirm homosexual practice. Neither does this CBF organizational value allow for the purposeful hiring of a staff person or the sending of a missionary who is a practicing homosexual.


There is a link to download the full statement, but my browser freezes up every time I click on it. :(

If I'm reading this correctly, the CBF won't spend money on behalf of (or for) organizations or causes that "condone, advocate or affirm homosexual practice." The CBF won't hire a staff person, nor financially support, a person who is a "practicing homosexual." Since I believe that our checkbooks speak more to our beliefs than any thing else, the CBF's unwillingness to fund anything with a positive bent towards homosexuality speaks volumes. I've spoken to some friends within the homosexual community, and they think in a similar fashion; if not a little bit beyond what I'm thinking. For them, there just isn't a whole lot of difference between the CBF and SBC

TL;DR
1. the CBF is not pro-homosexuality.
2. has more in common with the SBC than some would like to admit when it comes to homosexuality.

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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Wed Sep 28, 2011 12:55 pm

Tim Dahl wrote:If I'm reading this correctly, the CBF won't spend money on behalf of (or for) organizations or causes that "condone, advocate or affirm homosexual practice." The CBF won't hire a staff person, nor financially support, a person who is a "practicing homosexual." Since I believe that our checkbooks speak more to our beliefs than any thing else, the CBF's unwillingness to fund anything with a positive bent towards homosexuality speaks volumes. I've spoken to some friends within the homosexual community, and they think in a similar fashion; if not a little bit beyond what I'm thinking. For them, there just isn't a whole lot of difference between the CBF and SBC

TL;DR
1. the CBF is not pro-homosexuality.
2. has more in common with the SBC than some would like to admit when it comes to homosexuality.

Thanks,
Tim


With regard to CBF won't spend money on behalf, etc. - maybe the CBF hasn't technically violated this policy but certainly in the last handful of years the CBF has warmed up to the welcoming & affirming Baptist Peace Fellowship. BPFNA has had a very visible presence the last few years at the General Assembly. There was a point in the past when this was not the case due to BPFNA's stance on homosexuality. This past year, BPFNA featured Julie P-R at their breakfast.

I noted a good bit of grumbling over the summer from very involved younger CBFers who do not like the CBF's policy on homosexuality with regard to field personnel. Just a couple weeks ago, ABP ran an op-ed by a Divinity Student calling for an end to the policy. So, I think the policy itself is definitely on the radar of younger CBFers - and many are not pleased by it.

To the more "militant" gays and lesbians (and yes fellow liberals there are "militant" gays and lesbians, I follow several in a row, constantly pushing petitions and calling for boycotts), there's not a bit of difference between CBF and SBC on this issue.

It's All-or-Nothing for them (just like with fundamentalists). I'm not a fan of extremes.

Yea, the CBF has more in common with the SBC than the average Southern Baptist is willing to recognize. Head over to SBCVoices, and the CBF=liberal. They have fingers-in-ears screaming if you make mention of this policy. But to some extent - that's a reasonable reaction.

First, there are clearly a good chunk of the younger crowd that is more affirming of gays and lesbians than previous generations. The common assumption (and I don't think it's a bad one) is that these younger Baptists get their views at least in part from the influence of professors at CBF-affiliated seminaries.

While professors may not explicitly affirm homosexuality, their approach to gays and lesbians is far different from that in the SBC seminaries. CBF scholars allow for a more free academic environment that (while not necessarily affirming their position) affirms diversity of viewpoints.

Second, there are clearly influential men and women in CBF life who are affirming of gays and lesbians. Daniel Vestal is not one. But there are others. Because the CBF has allowed for an environment that, again, accepts and welcomes a diversity of viewpoints.

Third, CBFers have long been interested in a *discussion* on sexuality issues. CBF officials in Atlanta (buck stops w/ Vestal) have for a long time rejected such a discussion. Even when the discussion was allowed year-before-last, it was tightly controlled and different than other discussions that are had at other workshops.

To CBF's credit, they eventually did allow the discussion to take place (believe it was led by George Mason and Joy Yee, right?). And now this upcoming April, there is a conference on Sexuality & Covenant being hosted by CBF & Mercer at FBC Decatur.

The conference has its own Twitter account. @SexandCovenant

Vestal actually wrote a column about the conference not too long ago.
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Tim Dahl » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:10 pm

Those are some good points, Aaron.

Thank you!

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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby TrudyU » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:28 pm

Ed: Aaron I plan to have some more questions and comments on this latter but after driving all day and being in a horrific thunder storm for an hour before getting to our motel in Va. Beach, I aam only going to ask one tonight. Is that upcoming conference on homosexuality sponsored by Mercer and CBF National or The Georgia CBF & Mercer ?
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Neil Heath » Thu Sep 29, 2011 10:56 am

It's sponsored by CBF National and Mercer's , Ed.

Here's the FB page description:

"Through plenary presentation and smaller Community Dialogue Groups, this Conference, co-sponsored by the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and Center for Theology and Public Life at Mercer University, aims to provide Baptists and other interested Christians an opportunity for honest, compassionate and prayerful dialogue around matters and questions of sexuality.

Concluding a year-long practice of prayerful convenant community, presenters and facilitators (both Baptist and non-Baptist) will offer diverse perspectives that encourage thoughtful reflection and conversation among participants. Above all, participants will be encouraged to consider what it means to live as convenant people the contemporary and emerging situation.

Everyone is welcome.

For more information, visit www.thefellowship.info/conference. "

PS: I don't know if "convenant" is misspelled or a word I don't recognize. :)
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Haruo » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:16 pm

covenant
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Re: Talk About A Redneck

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:12 pm

Neil Heath wrote:It's sponsored by CBF National and Mercer's , Ed.

Here's the FB page description:

"Through plenary presentation and smaller Community Dialogue Groups, this Conference, co-sponsored by the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and Center for Theology and Public Life at Mercer University, aims to provide Baptists and other interested Christians an opportunity for honest, compassionate and prayerful dialogue around matters and questions of sexuality.

Concluding a year-long practice of prayerful convenant community, presenters and facilitators (both Baptist and non-Baptist) will offer diverse perspectives that encourage thoughtful reflection and conversation among participants. Above all, participants will be encouraged to consider what it means to live as convenant people the contemporary and emerging situation.

Everyone is welcome.

PS: I don't know if "convenant" is misspelled or a word I don't recognize. :)


For more information, visit http://www.thefellowship.info/conference. "

ED: Gee that is half the price of the Mercer Preaching Consultation. :wink: And Neil, thanks for the reply .

But I do hope no one tries to register with a credit card that expired on January of this year. See the Link http://www.thefellowship.info/conference
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