Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Joseph Patrick » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:54 am

From Joseph Patrick...

Word has it that Oklahoma Baptist University has recently sent a tenured professor to a sabatical following his divorce. This person had just been voted as Chair Elect of the faculty council. This follows another forced resignation last year because that professor did not "fit the mold" of Southern Baptist thought. Does anyone else see a similarity?
When Bill Clinton lied, no one died...
Joseph Patrick
 
Posts: 423
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 1:53 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:12 pm

Joseph Patrick wrote:From Joseph Patrick...

Word has it that Oklahoma Baptist University has recently sent a tenured professor to a sabatical following his divorce. This person had just been voted as Chair Elect of the faculty council. This follows another forced resignation last year because that professor did not "fit the mold" of Southern Baptist thought. Does anyone else see a similarity?



Ed: I would have welcomed a sabbatical after my divorce in 1975. Could have used some additional time with the kids.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:56 pm

I assume by sabbatical, you mean he got fired, right?

What was the motivation for the firing? Was this a Religion professor?

Coincidentally, the director of my grad program was removed from his position following his divorce this past April. Of course, there's more to that story.
User avatar
Big Daddy Weaver
 
Posts: 2493
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:15 am
Location: Waco, TX

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Sandy » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:01 pm

It's been a while since I was in college, but I know the Baptist school I attended had a clause about divorce in the contract professors signed to teach there. I'd guess OBU probably had that as well.

I don't see how that makes OBU a "clone" of Southwestern. Southwestern is a theological school with a college of Biblical studies which primarily trains students for ministry and missions careers. As teachers, professors are expected to be role models for the students they are training. OBU is a university owned and operated by a state Baptist convention. with similar expectations. That's not "cloning" anything. The scripture teaches that those who are called to serve as teachers are held to a higher standard.

They don't have a "religion" department, or "religion" professors, they have a school of Christian studies and Bible professors.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Gene Scarborough » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:41 am

The pattern of control among SBC-liking folks is extending now to Associations and State Conventions. With OBU under Oklahoma control, it would be no surprise to see forced changes.

Some years ago every school and agency in NC made decisions to separate themselves from NCBSC control. Wake Forest University was the first / Retirement homes / other colleges and universities have made their own decisions. Campbell has strong ties with CBF and separated as well.

That seems to be the wise move when a gorilla is standing on the doorsteps.
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Sandy » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:44 am

I would guess, Gene, from past history and similar circumstances, that most Baptist convention related colleges have had a contract clause regarding professors and divorce since long before there was a CBF, or a conservative resurgence. As I mentioned, the school I attended did, and that was in 1975, in a state far removed from the Baptist Dixie heartland. If there is a "gorilla" standing at the door, it's been there for years.

I don't know what kind of relationship exists between OBU and the Oklahoma Baptist Convention, but if they own the school, support it financially and through being the primary recruiting ground for its students, as many state Baptist convention schools still do, then the trustees elected by the convention represent the will of the school's constituency, and they have the right to make whatever personnel policies they choose.

I also do not see separation of schools from their state convention governance as a good thing, at least, not in terms of the school's ability to continue as a Christian education institution involved in an extension of the discipleship ministries of the churches which once supported them, mainly training ministers and church leaders, which was the original purpose for most of them being founded in the first place. If Wake Forest is an example of what happens when a school deliberately distances itself from a Baptist state convention, then that is not a good thing. It may be good for the school in terms of attracting more students and revenue, if that's the bottom line, but in terms of the school's value to Baptists, obviously not so much. Schools that untie the knot that links them to their roots generally tend to drift, and a lot of formerly Baptist schools have done just that, with Wake Forest as a prime example. The fact that there are still a lot of Baptist kids out there whose families are looking for a solid, Biblically based education is reflected in the growth of undergraduate programs at Southeastern, Southern and Southwestern Seminaries, and at universities like Liberty, along with schools like OBU which have remained connected to their Baptist heritage.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:39 am

I graduated Emory which, like Duke is losely "Methodist." Same with Wake Forest. They are not heathens, but exist as normal instututions of higher education with outstanding recognition in education circles.

Every year there is a red-faced angry preacher complaining about something the Baptist schools do. They contribute little to the budget of each, but think they can control "dancing on campus."

I have never been impressed with the antagonism. A good school teaches students "how to think" and not "what to think." A good religion department challenges and informs students coming with a SS religion. It didn't destroy mine, but was perceived by fundies a doing such. Ignorance fears research and a growing view of the world!

On the same campus in Wake Forest which housed the University, now exists a little LIberty University / Bob Jones / Criswell Bible College. The political scheming and indoctrination is rediculous, in my view!

Since when do supposedly mature men and women need to have their minds controlled???? :brick:
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:14 pm

Ed: Geme S. asked Since when do supposedly mature men and women need to have their minds controlled???? :brick:

And not that I favor mind control, I must however ask, since when where the typical undergrad college students supposedly mature men and women?

I see the college experience as adjunct to the maturing process.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:01 pm

You ONLY reach maturity by taking responsibility for your thoughts and reason for having such, in my view.

A Freshman often comes to college with some idea of what he wants out of the experience and where it might lead to a good job. I thought I wanted to be a MD, but soon learned my forte was not in chemistry---much less organic. I switched majors to Psychology and also found an interest in Southern literature thanks to Dr. Floyd Watkins. I endured other general courses where I had no real interest.

Emory was purposely designed to teach people how to think and evaluate rather than exactly what to think. Professors would challenge you to explain why you chose a position when the subjects required some judgement. 1 in 3 did not make it to graduation. It was tough then and is so now. You are competing on the curve with the top 10% who make it in to begin with.

Maybe I was an exception to the rule, but I considered myself mature enough to separate truth from empty imagined truth. I also learned quickly that what I had previously supposed to be the truth, in some cases, fell into "naive truth" once one had a wider picture of the world and society. For me, Emory was a mind expansion experience and required me to be mature enough to decide what made sense and what should be filed as "interesting-but-not-necessary."

I hasten to say there are some ministers who, in their 50's, believe whatever the last book they read said. They have no personal faith and reasons for such. I pity the congregation trying to sort out what they can't even sort out. Many of them pretend superiority of intellect when they have no real intellect nor discernment!!!!
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Sandy » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:39 am

Gene Scarborough wrote:Emory was purposely designed to teach people how to think and evaluate rather than exactly what to think. Professors would challenge you to explain why you chose a position when the subjects required some judgement. 1 in 3 did not make it to graduation. It was tough then and is so now. You are competing on the curve with the top 10% who make it in to begin with.


That's a straw man argument. The idea that conservative schools don't teach their students how to think, but teach them what to think, can hardly be supported by the evidence. Usually, it is accompanied by some claim that the "how to think" schools have some kind of academic "superiority" rating, usually established by some secular source that uses measurements based on a subjective premise. It's easy to get high academic ratings when you simply exclude students who don't perform well on a standardized college entrance exam, or whose high school academic record was average. A lot of the smaller Baptist colleges were founded not for the purpose of pandering to the academic and social elite, but to provide a Biblically integrated Christian higher education in order to prepare each succeeding generation of church leaders, whether they were vocational ministers, missionaries, or lay people. The idea isn't to "weed out" the ordinary, it is to provide a sound, Biblically based education to the next generation of Christians, to help their churches equip them for service.

It is also not accurate to lump together schools like Bob Jones or Pensacola Christian with Oklahoma Baptist University, or any SBC state convention related college that has remained true to its conservative roots, or even the undergraduate schools at Southwestern, Southern and Southeastern. The latter have all achieved the same accreditation and recognition of their academic programs and curriculum as any of the elitist schools like Emory or Wake Forest. Over the past decade, I have had the opportunity to work with, and interview and hire, many graduates and students of solidly conservative Christian schools, including a number of alumni from Boyce Bible College at Southern Seminary, and the College at Southwestern, and I have found them to be as well prepared, intelligent, capable and "thinking" as their colleagues at the more elitist academies, in many cases much better prepared for a career as a classroom teacher, or day care director, or a pastor, as those from the "ivory towers."

Baptists love their paternalistic elitism, but look at which schools the churches are turning to for their leadership. They're not beating a path to Wake Forest's door anymore.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:07 am

I think that the whole question in the 21st century is going to be broader. It will revolve around the question of the role of the private, denominational college. There was certainly a day when most state conventions felt it was part of their mission to start and fund denominational colleges to train leadership for the churches. Many of those have provided outstanding service for the churches and the denomination. Most have their roots in the period between 1830 and 1920.

The first question is funding. Because of the increasing costs of post-secondary education, the portion of most denominational colleges' budgets provided from the parent denomination has shrunk to less than 5% of the total operating budgets, and in some cases is less than 1% of that budget. Colleges have increasingly turned to other sources of funding and have also questioned the state convention's right to exercise 100% control through the selection of trustees when they provide such a small part of the institution's support.

The second question is that of student populations. The price of many denominational colleges has become such that many of the students from their traditional denominational base can no longer afford to attend the denominational colleges. I am a graduate of one, and I would have loved for our son to attend where we did. With the scholarships and aid offered through a state university and their far lower cost for in-state students, he got his degree from that university for less than 1/4 of what it would have cost him to attend a denominational school. One of the reasons for fewer churches seeking leadership from some of the traditional Baptist schools like Wake Forest and Richmond is that the universities no longer market themselves to the Baptists of their states but rather seek an elite student body from wealthier backgrounds in order to remain afloat financially.

The third question is that of the role that will be accorded graduates in the future. The undermining of confidence in traditional Baptist schools like Baylor was big in many of Judge Pressler's early attacks and was the impetus behind starting undergraduate programs at SBC seminaries (as well as the desire to keep numbers of students up). Will Baptists in the future continue to look to their schools, or have the attacks already eroded confidence in those who come from them?

A fourth factor in higher education is found in the numbers of students who spend their first two years in local community colleges. My wife works in administration for a local community college branch, and their enrollments are up 56% over the last five years. Baptist colleges have traditionally marketed themselves as places to come spend your entire educational experience, but a decreasing percentage of today's students plan to spend four years on the same campus. The future of denominational schools may in part be related to how well they structure programs to receive these students who may have taken four years in a community college setting to complete their first two years of school.

How do others of you see the future of denominationa education?
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6965
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Gene Scarborough » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:58 pm

I agree with your analysis, Dave. Most accurate! The cost of any private university / college is high and I am glad I went to Emory on an academic scholarship / student loan / work on weekends and in the summer.

I remember well going to BSU conventions with students coming from all over Georgia. The folks from UGA / Georgia Southern and others (except Georgia Tech) came with tennis rackets and a party spirit. Us Emory folk came with books and assignments for Monday which required reading and writing over that weekend of BSU fun.

You can say what you please, but my Emory education exacted a price and higher level of intelligence to achieve. It was as I said above---not taught what to think, but how to!

Sandy---I totally disagree with your take on conservative schools. I was on the campus of SEBTS and visited classes after the Patterson Presidency became real. They had one professor telling students that using contraception was equal to abortion----and they were naive enough to buy into it. The term "Secular Humanism" was liberally applied to the theories of Freud and anything progressive ad nauseum!

Their BS degree from the SE College and the current Seminiary is true BS! :horse: I think the MDiv stands from "Master of Division" in any small church foolish enough to go to them for a student pastor.

If you doubt my word, I can give you the names of several churches who went through hell with blind trust of the old SEBTS-type student pastor. Now they get a Crusader with a new Constitution and By-laws hidden in his suit pocket which can make him into the next Dictator of their church. He tells them what they want to hear and it turns out to be a total lie within a year!!! Too much pain and suffering has resulted in many churches now going to Duke / Campbell / BTSR for the kind of student pastor they used to get out of SEBTS.

Don't try to convince me "the changes are for the better" because it is simply NOT SO!!!!
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:09 pm

Ed; Gene S. posted "Their BS degree from the SE College and the current Seminiary is true BS! :horse: ... " So I have to ask if Gene S. was trained to think so well at Emory why is it that he apparently dosn't know Bull S..t from Horse S..t?"
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Gene Scarborough » Fri Sep 09, 2011 3:43 pm

Ed---

BS coincides with the Batchelor of Science. The is no such clear association with HS!

When you stop being so picky, perhaps you will notice the difference in the smell, but the content is the same!!!! :brick:
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Sandy » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:03 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:If you doubt my word, I can give you the names of several churches who went through hell with blind trust of the old SEBTS-type student pastor. Now they get a Crusader with a new Constitution and By-laws hidden in his suit pocket which can make him into the next Dictator of their church. He tells them what they want to hear and it turns out to be a total lie within a year!!! Too much pain and suffering has resulted in many churches now going to Duke / Campbell / BTSR for the kind of student pastor they used to get out of SEBTS.


Sure, liberal churches. But as the leaders of most of those moderate Baptist schools and the "Baptist houses" of studies at others like Emory, Duke, etc., there are few students coming out of the churches to share, and few churches asking for their help with placement. SEBTS can't find enough students to fill all of the requests they get from churches for student pastors and for graduates.

The undergrad programs at the seminaries were developed in part to help get the numbers of students up, and as a response to alternative methods of getting a theological education. Students decide, when they apply for admission, where they want to go, based on what they can find out. A lot of them are not looking for a nice, secular education, which you can get at any state college or university for a third the price you'd pay at Wake Forest or Emory, or Baylor for that matter, and the companies that are looking to hire graduates aren't going to pay much difference to the school on the diploma. The University of Phoenix is the top job placement school in the country, so what does that tell you? There are students who are looking for a solid, Biblical education that will teach them how to discern and apply God's truth. Schools like Wake Forest avoid teaching their students anything that doesn't fit into their agenda, which is just as restrictive as you say Southeastern has become. So don't give me that mess about "teaching students how to think, not what to think." That's a laugh. They don't teach students anything they don't want them to know.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:17 am

Sandy wrote:
Schools like Wake Forest avoid teaching their students anything that doesn't fit into their agenda, which is just as restrictive as you say Southeastern has become. So don't give me that mess about "teaching students how to think, not what to think." That's a laugh. They don't teach students anything they don't want them to know.


Sandy, I wonder if you have ever been to Wake Forest or know anything personally about the school. I don't think your characterization is accurate. I lived in the Winston-Salem area for several years, had a number of friends associated with the university both as faculty and staff as well as alumni, and was on the campus for a number of events including those which were directed at ministers in the area. While I did not endorse everything taught there or done on the campus. I never found the restrictive kind of thinking that you describe. Maybe you have spent more time around Wake than I have, if so, I would be interested in how you found the campus and its atmosphere. My experience as a neighbor and frequent visitor was nothing like what you describe.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6965
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Gene Scarborough » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:34 am

Sandy---

Your view of education is far too restrictive for me---and I feel sorry for you. You probably don't watch any news but FOX and cringe when an underwear commercial comes on.

I think you would fit well the description of a Conservative given by H.L. Menken = "My contemporary ancestors!"

For sure you have not visited nor enrolled in the institutions you castigate. NEVER ONCE did a professor at Emory / SEBTS tell me what to think. I got my "C" on my religious class term paper at Emory because "I didn't consider both sides of whether Jesus was the Suffering Servant depicted in Isaiah. The professor was right in that he noted it was an "A" paper with what I showed about Jesus being the Suffering Servant!

You see, good intellect is capable of considering all sides of a given issue and then explaining logically why I choose the side which makes sense to me!!!!
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Gary » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:21 am

Unrelated, but Oklahoma Baptist University receives about 5.3% of its budget from the BGCO.

OBU Budget = $47.69 Million
BGCO Allocation = $2,555,520

To be exact that equals: 5.3586%

Trustees all elected by BGCO.

They are Okie Baptists til the end.

Gary
__________________________________________________________
Gary Skaggs, Norman, OK
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei
User avatar
Gary
 
Posts: 447
Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:49 pm
Location: Norman, Oklahoma

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Sandy » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:56 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:Sandy---

Your view of education is far too restrictive for me---and I feel sorry for you. You probably don't watch any news but FOX and cringe when an underwear commercial comes on.

I think you would fit well the description of a Conservative given by H.L. Menken = "My contemporary ancestors!"

For sure you have not visited nor enrolled in the institutions you castigate. NEVER ONCE did a professor at Emory / SEBTS tell me what to think. I got my "C" on my religious class term paper at Emory because "I didn't consider both sides of whether Jesus was the Suffering Servant depicted in Isaiah. The professor was right in that he noted it was an "A" paper with what I showed about Jesus being the Suffering Servant!

You see, good intellect is capable of considering all sides of a given issue and then explaining logically why I choose the side which makes sense to me!!!!


My view of education is found in I Corinthians 1, the words of the Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, summed up by this:
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." Do they teach that at Emory? I'd guess that "all sides" probably don't matter much, and that discerning God's wisdom is as much of a spiritual matter as it is an intellectual exercise in logic. At any rate, intellect and logic are empty apart from the spirit of God.
Sandy
Sandy
 
Posts: 8191
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 5:10 pm
Location: Rural Western Pennsylvania

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:51 am

Sandy wrote:
My view of education is found in I Corinthians 1, the words of the Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, summed up by this:
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength." Do they teach that at Emory? I'd guess that "all sides" probably don't matter much, and that discerning God's wisdom is as much of a spiritual matter as it is an intellectual exercise in logic. At any rate, intellect and logic are empty apart from the spirit of God.


Sandy, I really don't think that you are so far from my own perspective. I am not looking for education that depreciates my Christian commitment or the role of God's Spirit. At the same time, I am convinced that if the mind of Christians is not exercised to read and see the options in our world, we will never be able to answer the emerging worldviews that surround us. I would never want to be sheltered from those but would want to interact with those concerns. It is true that some teaching in university settings can be just as doctrinaire in their presentations as the most committed fundamentalist. Yet, if Christian young people are not taught to be conversant with the viewpoints being presented, our apologetic will die a fast death in intellectual circles. We need more of the C S Lewis type of Christian apologists who meet the world head-on, not those who retreat to their own shrinking domes of "truth."
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 6965
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Will Okla. Bapt. U. become a clone of Southwestern?

Postby Gene Scarborough » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:07 am

Sandy and Dave---

When I was interviewed one time for the Staff position of Associate in Youth and Education, a committee members asked me a direct question: "What would you do if a youth or college student asked you why he should believe the Bible when so many say it is just a creation of man to control others?"

First, I told him I would congratulate the student for a deeper level of thinking and question than most people.

Next, I would admit I had to consider such things as I studied and thought from high school through college and then through a MDiv education. Hard times and new information sometimes make for serious questions about a less-considered faith, but mine has survived intact. I believe in God and that Jesus is his Son and our Saviour.

Faith is like when you sit in a chair. You don't take a magnifying glass and examine every joint in the chair. You don't go beneath the house to make sure the floor will support you as well. You sit in faith and trust that the chair will support you since it appears to be built properly and is not sitting crooked.

All the Bible passages in the world will not protect you from sincere doubts, but a faith is not faith without some sincere doubts!!! A faith which cannot stand real doubts thrown at it---is a flemsy chair ready to fall apart in slight breezes!

I feel sorry for the youngster who is not allowed to ask questions and only gets the "shut up and do as I say" response to those which are serious. Baptist babies want to view God as sitting on a rock and dictating the Bible to men who never made a mistake either. It's a total fabrication and guaranteed to leave the new believer in a mess the mind will never be able to sustain.

Don't ever ask me to take out my brain in order to be a Believer!!!!!
Gene Scarborough
Gene Scarborough
 
Posts: 3087
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:54 pm
Location: Bath, NC


Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron