That "Good Old Baylor Line" Is Going To Love This One

[Alan Carter]

Just wait until the Baylor Baptists in Texas and around the world hear about this reduction in cash. The earthquake in DC won't even compare.

http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.ph ... &Itemid=53

[Sandy]

Baylor's administration has carefully crafted this particular funding into a place in its budget where any cuts will be felt by Baptist students receiving ministerial grants and scholarships, rather than any part of the budget actually being affected by it. I would say that, with the right to choose a majority of its own trustees goes the right to raise all the funding you think you can get from non-Baptist sources, and from fewer Baptist families who will pay the tuition to send their kids there as the school loses its Baptist ties and connections. Good luck with that, given that most of their heavy hitting donors are members of Texas Baptist churches. They're already seeing some major holes in 2012. Alienating more Baptists, especially in the shriveling, shrinking BGCT, which is their only convention line of support now, will make it tough to raise money from some of their well-heeled donors who want to see the Baptist ties strengthened rather than loosened. Maybe some Campbellite folks will ante up now that they snagged an ex-Church of Christ member as Prez.

I think we are probably on the verge of a paradigm shift in the operation of private, Christian colleges and universities. Controlling schools through trustee ties to denominations may be going the way of the dinosaur as costs rise and tuition makes it impossible for the average Christian family to consider sending their children to a Christian school.

Then, too, there is the drift away from the Biblical foundations that many would point to in the case of Baylor as a reason for declining denominational and financial support. A couple of schools here in PA dropped their trustee boards and denominational ties to Presbyterians and have retained a strong conservative Evangelical appeal. Both Geneva and Grove City Colleges are staunch, theologically conservative schools whose future was saved by a board that steered the schools away from a liberal denomination and into a more self-perpetuating trustee board that guarantees only those with theologically compatible views are elected to open seats. This, in turn, has led to enrollment increases and financial prosperity for both colleges.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

This reduction was to be expected. The Baylor Lariat - student newspaper - ran an article this week about the BGCT and Baylor renegotiating their relationship this Fall. I think the Standard wrote about the renegotiation a couple months back.

This renegotiation was needed. It makes sense for the BGCT to designate their funds only to Baptist-related areas such as Truett, ministerial scholarships and hopefully in the future the Department of Religion's Center for Baptist Studies.

Pretty sure this year's freshmen class is the largest ever (breaking last year's record). Unlike other universities, Baylor has not suffered financially. Quite the opposite. And the strained relationships with influential and wealthy Texas Baptist alums have been improved. I haven't really heard any criticism of President Starr (which is rather exceptional considering Baylor's recent history with presidents and interim presidents).

From all accounts, President Starr has spent much time reaching out to disaffected donors, especially Texas Baptist ones. Look at the initiatives that Starr has championed - the creation of a center for Baptist studies and increased scholarship aid to Baptist missionary kids. I think Texas Baptist donors understand that the relationship b/w BGCT and Baylor necessarily has to change, has really already changed but that Baylor can still maintain a strong commitment to its Baptist heritage in many different ways (a few outlined above).

[Sandy]

Give it time. Starr is still in the honeymoon period, though I would guess a good Republican, former prosecutor of Bill Clinton would be as slick as snot when it comes to schmoozing egos.

The "cooling off" of relations between Baylor and the BGCT, while it may have been reported previously, is not just a sign that Baylor is becoming distant from its Baptist heritage and roots. Though its left wing has controlled its leadership for quite some time, the convention as a whole is not far off from center in the spectrum of evangelical Christianity, and if it is too conservative to hold any kind of leadership over Baylor, where is the green and gold going to appeal as a "national Christian university?" The middle to left mainliners are rapidly declining, and they've already let most of their former institutions of higher learning turn into secular, second tier schools that appeal to those who can't get in to the really good universities.

What was all that whining David Garland did at the 2009 BGCT annual meeting about having to raise tuition and fees to cover the indebtedness that the university had to climb into in order to meet construction goals for a 2012 initative that was, in his words, "falling short" of its fundraising goals?

[Ed Pettibone]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I'm not going to argue that Baylor's relationship with the average Texas Baptist families is certainly changing. Tuition is $30K. That fact by itself is going to change the relationship.

I don't think, however, that these changes on how Baylor relates to the BGCT really indicate that Baylor is becoming distant from its Baptist heritage.

The comparison of Baylor to a mainline school just doesn't fly. While the Baptist heritage may not get as much emphasis as it did 20 years ago, Baylor's commitment to being a distinctly Christian university that integrates faith and learning in research and instruction is still very strong. Baylor is still extremely conservative - with an increasing number of Catholic students and professors. We're talking about a school that won't grant a charter to a student group to discuss sexuality issues. Baylor is a school controlled by thoroughly Republican Regents. Check out Howard Batson's article in the new issue of Christian Ethics Today. His comments on homosexuality indicate where the leadership stands.

There just are really no signs that Baylor is moving in some sort of "liberal" or "mainline" direction.

I think, if you talk to anyone, they'll tell you that much has changed since David Garland finished his interim as president. Starr has definitely brought stability. Maybe it's a honeymoon. Time will tell. Starr just seems to have a different approach than past presidents. The new Administration is working on a strategic plan. Not sure when they roll that out - there could be some controversy then. But, I don't expect to see anything rise to the level of the drama that went on in the last 6-7 years or so.

[Sandy]

If it is distancing itself from Baptist families by high tuition and fees, accepting an increasing number of Catholic students and professors, and now is seeing its ties to the BGCT loosened, where is it going to find a "distinctively Christian" identity.

The school where I now serve as administrator identifies itself as "distinctively Christian," which sets us apart from "obviously secular" in some very specific ways that our constituency recognizes and expects. This includes complete integration of Biblical truth into every aspect of the curriculum, under the belief that education is a quest to understand the revealed truth of God (as opposed to the creation of new knowledge), and having all of our employees, administrator, teachers, office staff, nurses, coaches, bus drivers, maintenance and janitors, be people who can testify to a personal salvation experience with Jesus and a living faith that includes active membership in a local church whose basic beliefs are compatible with the school's statement of faith. In our area, that's a rather broad and diverse constituency, including individuals from non-denominational churches, Reformed, Evangelical and PCA Presbyterians, Evangelical Free, three or four different kinds of Baptists, Christian and Missionary Alliance, Mennonites, Missouri Synod Lutherans, Bible churches, Free Methodist, Nazarene, and a few Catholics and Methodists who have discovered that the Bible is authoritative, is God's written word, revealed truth and infallible. The school's statement of faith anchors the definition of "distinctively Christian" to belief in the Bible as God's written word of truth without error, salvation by grace through faith in Christ, and assurance by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Those are distinctives that the vast majority of conservative Evangelicals recognize and agree upon as essentials. There's a big difference between being merely "conservative," defined as simple opposition to homosexuality and other liberal social issues, and conservative from a theological, doctrinal position. A theologically conservative university would not recognize academic tradition as authoritative over Biblical teaching, and it would generally not consider the teaching of Christian principles or Biblical theology as "religion".

It seems to me that Baylor's separation from the BGCT is a sign that it is "distinctively religious," but not necessarily "distinctively Christian."

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Well, Baylor is definitely not a school that defines its Christian identity to encompass only conservative evangelicalism. Catholics are Christian too.

Baylor is a major university doing both research and teaching and attempting to by faithful to its identity as a Christian university in the Baptist tradition thru the integration of faith and learning. It's not a 'Bible' school that imposes a strict orthodoxy on its faculty and sees Catholics as not authentic Bible-believers.

I don't know what the problem is with Baylor having a Department of Religion. The department offers more than just courses on Christianity. When you have classes on Islam and Judaism, the religion category makes sense.

What Texas Baptist affiliated college or university did you ever support? Most of the schools are filled with faculty and administrators who either once taught at Baylor or earned their phd from Baylor. While some of those schools may have a more conservative theological bent, none live up to your litmus test of what a Christian university should look like.

As far as I know, the other Texas Baptist colleges teach evolution in their biology courses. I'm gathering that fact would raise "secular" red flags for you.

[Alan Carter]

I grew up hearing that Baylor was "BB" for "barely Baptist" and "a state school with a church name." Not exactly sure what they meant in either case but perhaps its more true today than it was then. I sure wouldn't say they are "overly Baptist."

[Sandy]

"Teaching evolution" can have more than one meaning. The university I attended taught the theory of evolution in its science courses as it had progressed up to that particular point, but it taught it as a theory, not as proven fact. Much of what was taught as "fact" in the secular academic world related to Darwinism has been proven incorrect in the years since I was in school, and it is no closer to the proverbial "missing link" than it ever has been, though there are few in the secular scientific community who will admit it. I know of only one university affiliated with the BGCT which teaches evolution as if it is a foregone conclusion, and that's Baylor. The others teach it, but not as proven fact, and not without matching it with some form of Biblically based creation science.

The only BGCT-related university I "supported" or was familiar with would be Houston Baptist University, where I did a couple of years worth of graduate study. Other than Dr. Sloan, who got his undergrad degree from Baylor, and one permanent dean of the education college, there are just a small handful of profs there with a degree from Baylor of one kind or another, perhaps four or five total. I never had a prof with a Baylor degree in any course I ever took there. The theology department is pretty much dominated by individuals with undergrad degrees either from HBU or another conservative, evangelical college, and graduate degrees from one of the SBC seminaries. Dr. Sloan has taken HBU in a decidedly conservative, evangelical direction and its recent move to allow non-Baptists, and non-BGCT trustees has been directed at conservative, evangelical Christians. The school is, for all intents and purposes, booming in terms of enrollment, finance and contributors, and I know for a fact they do not teach evolution as a fact in their science department.

If Baylor is going to broaden its curriculum and its appeal to include Catholics, that's great. Go for it, especially at $30K a year tuition. But with that broad of a "religious" perspective, it will have less appeal to students coming from conservative Evangelical churches, which represent the vast majority of Christian constituents these days, and will have to appeal to a more secular, affluent population that can pay the tuition. That tells me that it will be much less "distinctively Christian" than schools like HBU, or even Liberty, which attracts as many Texas Baptists as Baylor does.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: And at $17,806 Liberty is over priced in my opinion at $24 thousand plus HBU is also a rip off in my humble opinion.

Ouachita Baptist University which for at least a decade has been among the U.S. News Best Collage buys has a tuition of : $16,508

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Sandy]

HBU "bucked" the BGCT largely to enter into a fraternal relationship with the SBTC and with some Houston area churches, mostly non-denominational, which are sources of a lot of HBU students. Looking for non-Baptist trustees doesn't necessarily mean finding some supportive Catholics or Episcopalians. There are a lot of large, conservative, Evangelical non-denominational churches which are looking to build relationships with Christian colleges and universities, especially with those that are willing to remain committed to building a faculty and student body that holds to the infallibility of the Bible. And if that's your statement of faith, then you don't believe that Biblical creation is a "theory." Having attended church for several years with an HBU science prof, I know they don't teach evolution as fact, and they don't teach creation science as a "theory." I'd be willing to bet that the other seven Baptist schools in Texas are similar in their teaching. (I think Ken Coffee may have a post on his blog about this very subject as it relates to Wayland).

HBU is heavily influenced by Houston's First Baptist Church, and Second Baptist Church, and probably two thirds of the faculty worships at one of the two on any given Sunday. I think Dr. Sloan belongs to First, though he does a lot of interims.

In a time when small, private, church-affiliated colleges are biting the dust in a lot of places, some have visionary leadership that see the correlation between holding to conservative theology and values, and abandoning liberalism. There are some good illustrations of that close to me here in Western Pennsylvania. Geneva College and Grove City College, both small schools once tied to the Presbyterians, have moved to a more non-denominational perspective that is aligned with Evangelical conservatives, and both have seen growth in enrollment and increased contributions. Being anchored to a Biblical worldview hasn't harmed their academic reputations, while other private, "religiously based" colleges in this area are cutting staff and seeing enrollment declines.

[Tim Dahl]