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I get a little jealous every time a Golden Spur is awarded and it's not to me.

But I did have a good conversation on the phone with Dr. Thornton yesterday and I join others in commending his good work and deconstruction of this book on Moon and her hold on Baptists mindset.

I hope the author will grace us with a few thoughts.

Take a look at Thornton's latest blog, his third, on Moon and this book.

Today he is analyzing various photos over the years of Moon.

I agree with Thornton's implications, especially her look of Cartersville, Ga. Toy was smitten with brain and beauty

Let me be quite frank: I don't trust the current SBC historians not to redact history!!!

I was priviledged to work with Catherine Allen on her Lottie Moon biography. The reason was that she served as a school teacher for a plantation owner in Bishopville, SC, as she made her journey to Rome, Ga. As pastor, I heard the story from a couple of old ladies and pursued it with pictures of the outbuilding and still standing plantation house. Ms. Allen was quite grateful for the added information on her life.

As I talked and corresponded with Catherine Allen, I found her to be down-to-earth and simply wanting to convey as complete a story as possible. No theology involved. Just the truth as best she could discover it!

On the other hand, now Paige Patterson has managed to come by her mission station remnants and who knows what else. Instead of immediately conveying them to WMU headquarters where they belong, he has them under investigation at SWBTS. Who knows what will come from this?

I know for a fact, Dr. Nathan Finn, current Professor of SBC HIstory at SEBTS, is working hard to redact the story of N. Rocky Mount Baptist Church where I served as Pastor. Their place in SBC history is that they took a fundamentalist pretender of a Pastor to court in NC over ownership of the church property. The case is entitled Johnson vs. N. Rocky Mount Baptist Church and occurred in the late 50's in NC. It dealt with the central question: Which is the real Southern Baptist congregation entitled to ownership of the property deeded "as long as it remains a SBC church?" It set legal precedent in NC and was cited as a pivotal event in SBC history in the Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists. It was affirmed all the way to the NC State Supreme Court that the minority in the formal vote was the real SBC congregation. They had the property returned to them.

Dr. Finn and I have debated the issue on SBCLife with him contending that there was nasty stuff being done by the NCBSC and others to deprive the congregation of its autonomy in deciding to leave the SBC and N. Rocky Mount Association. It is my contention, based on the court transcript and members still living, that the minority was telling this sneaky pastor that he played games with emotions and got 51% to vote to leave in a meeting poorly announced and based on faulty information given by that Bob Jones-educated fundamentalist rascal.

I know this redaction attempt personally. I am not surprised with the attempt to prove Lottie Moon was a conservative and left Toy over theological differences. It makes as much sense as the claim that Southern Baptists are really Calvinists.

Please, SBC leadership, quit the chuck-and-jive to prove you are right. If you were really "right," then there would be no need to re-write (redact) history to fit your view.

I appreciate the fair and balanced views presented by William in his blog. It fits my picture that Lottie was more concerned about the lost souls of China than the preservation of some theological "orthodoxy."

Gene, get the new book and read it. I would be surprised if you find much fault with it. It is a scholarly, well-researched and documented book.

You pretty much stand alone in denying that the liberalism of Toy meant something to LM.

This conjecture is relatively new so I hardly think I stand or sit alone. Until I see more actual evidence, I remain undecided.

Because of Lottie's independent nature, I have my doubts about her acceptability as a submissive woman fit for missions.

Gene, you need to back off a little and check some links.

This book is published by LSU press, got nothing to do with the SBC Redactors. It is endorsed by Baptist Women in Ministry, hardly a favorite of Mohler, Patterson and the SBC Redactors.

Thornton has done some good exegesis with his three blogs at the Plodder and entries here in Trends.

I hope he takes his dogged pursuit next to Dan Williams' God's Own Party. With Richard Land at the Perry prayer fiasco yesterday, enough there to take us to Thanksgiving and beyond.

Please Gene make time to catch up on your reading. A lot has been discovered since you made headway against Altizer at Emory in 69.

If you guys will be kind enough to share the LSU biography details, I will be glad to listen. What I have heard to date eminated from Paige Patterson with no evidence I know in Lottie's own hand. It appeared to be conjecture on their part assuming Lottie was a theological conservative.

By the way, Stephen, I graduated Emory in 1967. The Altizer stuff took place that spring as it hit the front page of Time Magazine. Altizer's presentation at the colloquium called at Emory was so rambling that there was nothing to debate. It was more a tempest in a teapot than a great theological treatise. At its core was the concept of immanance and transcendance. In its essence he was rambling to say, "The God 'out there' has become totally 'in here' as Christ walked this earth." Death understood as a simple change in nature makes it make more sense. Pagans who think death is the end, will always have trouble with the phrase!!!

All they show is ignorance and loudness in the place of rambling with .25-cent words.

Dave----Consult with Paige Patterson------he is the master of .25-centers, followed closely by Al Mohler!!!!

I was always told it was more important to communicate than to intimidate.

At the least, I have enough training in legal / theological / insurance technicalities to either communicate or intimidate. With the availability of a Thesaureus in my MIcrosoft Word program, I can always find a bigger word to use / definition of such / decide whether the writer/speaker is an intimidator or communicator!!!!

I don't find many big words coming from Jesus or even Paul. The pastor who interprets scripture so even a child can understand it is doing his job well, in my view!

Nothing beats a great illustration to put it into a sleepy-headed listener on Sunday mornings.

David---

Can I get a "mil-spur" for starting the .25-cent word thing????

Inflation now makes a regular penny worth about the same as you faux-pennies of Oklahoma!!!! Who would ever think that $20 of fuel would just pay for the trip to the pump!!!!!!

And----just what does this have to do with Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy, gentlemen??????

Can we quit chasing rabbits for a while on this important subject???

I have some coinage from the SC state prison. They had their own 'monetary' system.

...and Lottie Moon travelled through SC and Crawford Toy taught at the seminary that was once located in SC.

How's that for relevance?

= the best I can do without a famous "golden spur" with a smiley spur!!!!!

We both share a wicked sense of humor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Here is the latest in information on the Lottie Moon story from LSU:



It bespeaks a problem with a courageous woman advocating for a proper place in missionary legacy. According to the author, the starvation story served to raise money, but had little to do with the reality of the day.

We seem to use "history" to promote money raising---and the real story deals with self-centered male leaders balancing the books with little regard for spiritual / physical needs of a person like Lottie Moon.

I think Thornton has the winning point, clearly in the specific exchange above.

But Warnock's blog--linked above-- is the best written to date on the matter, with Thornton's several blogs at Plodder a close 2nd.

One thing both of them have on Scarborough's conjectures is unlike him, both of them have read the book.

I finally after two years got my hands on the Lottie biography. Only three pages on her relationship with Toy, but my reading is no way Lottie would be a part of Adrian Rogers shenanigans and the takeover. Kat Allen was right she would wince at what's done in her name, but Cat Allen hands are not clean. When she knew the facts in the early 70s she went with the legend to keep the money coming in for the annual Lottie Moon offering which didn't kick in as a big denominational money grabber till the mid 60s.

Warnock's review mighta covered that--two years ago now--but first read for me.

A remarkable woman indeed who as a 19 year old girl in her prep school on April Fools Day wrapped towels around the school bell in the tower. Lot of spunk, not the kind of woman who woulda had anything to do with Paige Patterson. If she were alive today I'm convinced she'd be alot like Rachel Held Evans, a friend of Anne Lamott, who admired Marilynne Robinson and corresponded with Tupelo Hassman, maybe even Alice McDermott and James Wood.

Ginny Moon did have a sister named Lottie, and they were of the same generation of the Virginia Moons, state of, but Ginny Moon referenced above who had all the boyfriends in Memphis, was of a Moon family from Ohio

Toni Morrison who's father was from Lottie Moon's hometown of Cartersville Ga was on NPR Fresh Air for the hour yesterday and told this story about Lotte's hometown.
Toni was born in 1936 I thin she said, so her father's story woulda been in the 19 teens best I can figure about the same time of the Leo Frank lynching just down the road in Marietta.
Morrison says her fatgher saw two black businessmen lynched on his street in Cartersville as a young boy and hated all white people the rest of his life. Her mother was a little more tolerable.

If there was somehistorical fiction set in Cartersville Ga like EL Doctorow's novel on Coalhouse Walker, it would be interesting to have Lottie's story and the father of Toni Morrison intersect.