The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

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Lottie Moon, Spurs and Jealousy

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:34 pm

I get a little jealous every time a Golden Spur is awarded and it's not to me.

But I did have a good conversation on the phone with Dr. Thornton yesterday and I join others in commending his good work and deconstruction of this book on Moon and her hold on Baptists mindset.

I hope the author will grace us with a few thoughts.

Take a look at Thornton's latest blog, his third, on Moon and this book.

Today he is analyzing various photos over the years of Moon.

I agree with Thornton's implications, especially her look of Cartersville, Ga. Toy was smitten with brain and beauty
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Gene Scarborough » Sun Aug 07, 2011 3:56 pm

Let me be quite frank: I don't trust the current SBC historians not to redact history!!!

I was priviledged to work with Catherine Allen on her Lottie Moon biography. The reason was that she served as a school teacher for a plantation owner in Bishopville, SC, as she made her journey to Rome, Ga. As pastor, I heard the story from a couple of old ladies and pursued it with pictures of the outbuilding and still standing plantation house. Ms. Allen was quite grateful for the added information on her life.

As I talked and corresponded with Catherine Allen, I found her to be down-to-earth and simply wanting to convey as complete a story as possible. No theology involved. Just the truth as best she could discover it!

On the other hand, now Paige Patterson has managed to come by her mission station remnants and who knows what else. Instead of immediately conveying them to WMU headquarters where they belong, he has them under investigation at SWBTS. Who knows what will come from this?

I know for a fact, Dr. Nathan Finn, current Professor of SBC HIstory at SEBTS, is working hard to redact the story of N. Rocky Mount Baptist Church where I served as Pastor. Their place in SBC history is that they took a fundamentalist pretender of a Pastor to court in NC over ownership of the church property. The case is entitled Johnson vs. N. Rocky Mount Baptist Church and occurred in the late 50's in NC. It dealt with the central question: Which is the real Southern Baptist congregation entitled to ownership of the property deeded "as long as it remains a SBC church?" It set legal precedent in NC and was cited as a pivotal event in SBC history in the Encyclopedia of Southern Baptists. It was affirmed all the way to the NC State Supreme Court that the minority in the formal vote was the real SBC congregation. They had the property returned to them.

Dr. Finn and I have debated the issue on SBCLife with him contending that there was nasty stuff being done by the NCBSC and others to deprive the congregation of its autonomy in deciding to leave the SBC and N. Rocky Mount Association. It is my contention, based on the court transcript and members still living, that the minority was telling this sneaky pastor that he played games with emotions and got 51% to vote to leave in a meeting poorly announced and based on faulty information given by that Bob Jones-educated fundamentalist rascal.

I know this redaction attempt personally. I am not surprised with the attempt to prove Lottie Moon was a conservative and left Toy over theological differences. It makes as much sense as the claim that Southern Baptists are really Calvinists.

Please, SBC leadership, quit the chuck-and-jive to prove you are right. If you were really "right," then there would be no need to re-write (redact) history to fit your view.

I appreciate the fair and balanced views presented by William in his blog. It fits my picture that Lottie was more concerned about the lost souls of China than the preservation of some theological "orthodoxy."
Last edited by Gene Scarborough on Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:35 pm

Gene, get the new book and read it. I would be surprised if you find much fault with it. It is a scholarly, well-researched and documented book.

You pretty much stand alone in denying that the liberalism of Toy meant something to LM.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Gene Scarborough » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:49 pm

This conjecture is relatively new so I hardly think I stand or sit alone. Until I see more actual evidence, I remain undecided.

Because of Lottie's independent nature, I have my doubts about her acceptability as a submissive woman fit for missions.
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Scarborough unschooled in this matter

Postby Stephen Fox » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:00 pm

Gene, you need to back off a little and check some links.

This book is published by LSU press, got nothing to do with the SBC Redactors. It is endorsed by Baptist Women in Ministry, hardly a favorite of Mohler, Patterson and the SBC Redactors.

Thornton has done some good exegesis with his three blogs at the Plodder and entries here in Trends.

I hope he takes his dogged pursuit next to Dan Williams' God's Own Party. With Richard Land at the Perry prayer fiasco yesterday, enough there to take us to Thanksgiving and beyond.

Please Gene make time to catch up on your reading. A lot has been discovered since you made headway against Altizer at Emory in 69.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Gene Scarborough » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:41 pm

If you guys will be kind enough to share the LSU biography details, I will be glad to listen. What I have heard to date eminated from Paige Patterson with no evidence I know in Lottie's own hand. It appeared to be conjecture on their part assuming Lottie was a theological conservative.

By the way, Stephen, I graduated Emory in 1967. The Altizer stuff took place that spring as it hit the front page of Time Magazine. Altizer's presentation at the colloquium called at Emory was so rambling that there was nothing to debate. It was more a tempest in a teapot than a great theological treatise. At its core was the concept of immanance and transcendance. In its essence he was rambling to say, "The God 'out there' has become totally 'in here' as Christ walked this earth." Death understood as a simple change in nature makes it make more sense. Pagans who think death is the end, will always have trouble with the phrase!!!

All they show is ignorance and loudness in the place of rambling with .25-cent words.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:04 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:

All they show is ignorance and loudness in the place of rambling with .25-cent words.


How big is a 1/4 of cent word? I think I like those :)
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Gene Scarborough » Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:53 am

Dave----Consult with Paige Patterson------he is the master of .25-centers, followed closely by Al Mohler!!!!

I was always told it was more important to communicate than to intimidate.

At the least, I have enough training in legal / theological / insurance technicalities to either communicate or intimidate. With the availability of a Thesaureus in my MIcrosoft Word program, I can always find a bigger word to use / definition of such / decide whether the writer/speaker is an intimidator or communicator!!!!

I don't find many big words coming from Jesus or even Paul. The pastor who interprets scripture so even a child can understand it is doing his job well, in my view!

Nothing beats a great illustration to put it into a sleepy-headed listener on Sunday mornings.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby David Flick » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:31 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Gene Scarborough wrote:

All they show is ignorance and loudness in the place of rambling with .25-cent words.


How big is a 1/4 of cent word? I think I like those :)

That was a humorous comeback, Dave. I laughed out loud, which earns you a GS. Here it is:
          Image

Speaking of fractions of a penny, I can remember when Oklahoma had mill coins (1/10th of a penny). For a while back in the '70s, I collected mill coins. In Oklahoma during the '40s & '50s, we had 2 denominations (i.e. 1 mill coins & 5 mill coins). Compared to the physical size of a penny, the mill coins were larger. These coins were of inexpensive material such as tin, aluminum, plastic or paper. Rising inflation depreciated the value of these tokens in relation to the value of their constituent materials; this depreciation led to their eventual abandonment. Virtually none were made after the 1960s. (Source...)

In the late '40s & early 50s, I and my cousin saved those 1 mill coins and spent them at Trent's 5 & 10 Store on Main Street in Hammon. Fifty of those 1-mill coins would buy a nickel box of explosive caps for our cap guns. Ten of the 5-mill coins would buy the same. We considered ourselves to be rich if we could accumulate 500 of the 1-mill coins. Of course 500 1-mill coins is only 50 cents. In 1950 when I was 9 years old, 50 cents was really big money. Today, a fraction of a cent is nothing. I guess you could say that one of Scarborough's 1/4th of a cent words (.25 cent words) is the equivalent to about 4 mills... :lol:
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:48 am

David---

Can I get a "mil-spur" for starting the .25-cent word thing????

Inflation now makes a regular penny worth about the same as you faux-pennies of Oklahoma!!!! Who would ever think that $20 of fuel would just pay for the trip to the pump!!!!!!
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:10 am

David Flick wrote:Speaking of fractions of a penny, I can remember when Oklahoma had mill coins (1/10th of a penny). For a while back in the '70s, I collected mill coins. In Oklahoma during the '40s & '50s, we had 2 denominations (i.e. 1 mill coins & 5 mill coins). Compared to the physical size of a penny, the mill coins were larger. These coins were of inexpensive material such as tin, aluminum, plastic or paper. Rising inflation depreciated the value of these tokens in relation to the value of their constituent materials; this depreciation led to their eventual abandonment. Virtually none were made after the 1960s. (Source...)

In the late '40s & early 50s, I and my cousin saved those 1 mill coins and spent them at Trent's 5 & 10 Store on Main Street in Hammon. Fifty of those 1-mill coins would buy a nickel box of explosive caps for our cap guns. Ten of the 5-mill coins would buy the same. We considered ourselves to be rich if we could accumulate 500 of the 1-mill coins. Of course 500 1-mill coins is only 50 cents. In 1950 when I was 9 years old, 50 cents was really big money. Today, a fraction of a cent is nothing. I guess you could say that one of Scarborough's 1/4th of a cent words (.25 cent words) is the equivalent to about 4 mills... :lol:


That's really interesting, David. I had no idea any state had their own coinage.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Ed Pettibone » Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:03 pm

William Thornton wrote:
David Flick wrote:Speaking of fractions of a penny, I can remember when Oklahoma had mill coins (1/10th of a penny). For a while back in the '70s, I collected mill coins. In Oklahoma during the '40s & '50s, we had 2 denominations (i.e. 1 mill coins & 5 mill coins). Compared to the physical size of a penny, the mill coins were larger. These coins were of inexpensive material such as tin, aluminum, plastic or paper. Rising inflation depreciated the value of these tokens in relation to the value of their constituent materials; this depreciation led to their eventual abandonment. Virtually none were made after the 1960s. (Source...)

In the late '40s & early 50s, I and my cousin saved those 1 mill coins and spent them at Trent's 5 & 10 Store on Main Street in Hammon. Fifty of those 1-mill coins would buy a nickel box of explosive caps for our cap guns. Ten of the 5-mill coins would buy the same. We considered ourselves to be rich if we could accumulate 500 of the 1-mill coins. Of course 500 1-mill coins is only 50 cents. In 1950 when I was 9 years old, 50 cents was really big money. Today, a fraction of a cent is nothing. I guess you could say that one of Scarborough's 1/4th of a cent words (.25 cent words) is the equivalent to about 4 mills... :lol:


That's really interesting, David. I had no idea any state had their own coinage.


Ed: William, I seem to recall seeing some of this coinage eons ago and I was thinking it was from Tennessee. The Wikipedia item that David linked to simply said "some states" I would be interested in knowing what states in addition to Oklahoma had such coinage, if any one out there knows. :|
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:49 pm

And----just what does this have to do with Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy, gentlemen??????

Can we quit chasing rabbits for a while on this important subject???
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:19 am

I have some coinage from the SC state prison. They had their own 'monetary' system.

...and Lottie Moon travelled through SC and Crawford Toy taught at the seminary that was once located in SC.

How's that for relevance? :wink:
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:50 am

William Thornton wrote:I have some coinage from the SC state prison. They had their own 'monetary' system.

...and Lottie Moon travelled through SC and Crawford Toy taught at the seminary that was once located in SC.

How's that for relevance? :wink:


We may be hopelessly lost.

We may never know if LM was put off by Crawford Toy's liberalism, by his bent toward questions that were a generation ahead of his peers, if she just didn't love him, or if he was put off by the independent woman she had become. Alas, it didn't become a marriage; or should it be "Amen"?
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Gene Scarborough » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:06 pm

:) :lol: :angel: = the best I can do without a famous "golden spur" with a smiley spur!!!!!

We both share a wicked sense of humor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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Lottie Moon "not eligible" in Mohler's SBC

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:05 pm

William Thornton has done good work in his several Plodder blog reviews of Regina Sullivan's new LSU bio of Lottie Moon, but Chuck Warnock may have the definitive review to date about the import of Ms. Sullivan's work on Lottie.
How Public School teachers across the SBC can continue in good conscience to fund the Lottie Moon Christmas offering let along the SBC continues to flabbergast me.
Here are Warnock's two strongest paragraphs

The significance of this book for Southern Baptists is that the real Lottie Moon story is better than the myth. After the Civil War, at a time when women in American society were advocating women’s political rights, Moon was a pioneer in her advocacy for women’s rights within the religious culture of the Southern Baptist Convention. Sullivan skillfully weaves the details of Lottie Moon’s life, the struggles of SBC Foreign Mission Board, the emergence of the Woman’s Missionary Union, and the politics of the Southern Baptist Convention into a single compelling story. At the center of it all was Lottie Moon, a force to be reckoned with in the late 1800s, and after her death a legend to be exploited for fundraising.

Moon’s defiance of the SBC Foreign Mission Board when she moved alone from the established mission compound in Tengchow to pioneer work as a single woman in Pingtu is an historical fact that cannot be ignored or rehabilitated to fit Victorian or contemporary notions of a woman’s “proper place.” Had the Foreign Mission Board been prescient enough to anticipate Moon’s entrepreneurial approach to mission work, the FMB would never have appointed her. For the same reasons today, Lottie Moon would not be eligible for appointment by the current International Mission Board.



http://chuckwarnockblog.wordpress.com/2 ... oon-story/

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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:54 pm

Here is the latest in information on the Lottie Moon story from LSU:

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6653/53/

It bespeaks a problem with a courageous woman advocating for a proper place in missionary legacy. According to the author, the starvation story served to raise money, but had little to do with the reality of the day.

We seem to use "history" to promote money raising---and the real story deals with self-centered male leaders balancing the books with little regard for spiritual / physical needs of a person like Lottie Moon.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby David Flick » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:00 am

Gene Scarborough wrote:David---

Can I get a "mil-spur" for starting the .25-cent word thing????
    Gene, you wouldn't want a cheap spur. What you need to do is work hard and come up with a quotable comment that is worth something valuable. The Golden Spur is a valuable award, i.e. something you can take to the bank. :wink:

Inflation now makes a regular penny worth about the same as you faux-pennies of Oklahoma!!!! Who would ever think that $20 of fuel would just pay for the trip to the pump!!!!!!
    I can remember the day when I could fill my car with fuel for less than $5.00. Back in the '65-'67, I was pastor of the Indian Baptist Mission in Seiling, Oklahoma. It was student-pastorate. I was attending Oklahoma Baptist University in Shawnee. Effie and I were living in Prague where she was teaching Home Economics. Each weekend we would make a 360 mile round-trip from Prague to Seiling. In those days I drove a 1966 Falcon (in this photo). The SIBMission facility was a converted 2-story house. Anyway along about that time fuel was about 30 cents a gallon. I think the Falcon had a 16-gallon tank. At 30 cents a gallon, I could fill the thing for $4.80. We had a lot of gas wars in Oklahoma during the '60s. I can vividly recall several times getting gas for 19 cents a gallon, which would mean that I could fill it up from empty for a mere $3.04. Amazing when you get to thinking about it. We'll never see those days again...
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:38 pm

Gene Scarborough wrote:Here is the latest in information on the Lottie Moon story from LSU:

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6653/53/

It bespeaks a problem with a courageous woman advocating for a proper place in missionary legacy. According to the author, the starvation story served to raise money, but had little to do with the reality of the day.

We seem to use "history" to promote money raising---and the real story deals with self-centered male leaders balancing the books with little regard for spiritual / physical needs of a person like Lottie Moon.


Not sure what you mean Gene, but the new book (which I have read) argues against your last sentence. Lottie's pleas for support are well known through her letters. The point of the death narrative is that it is not an accurate explanation for the events in the last few months of LM's life.
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Thornton and Warnock's points

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:25 pm

I think Thornton has the winning point, clearly in the specific exchange above.

But Warnock's blog--linked above-- is the best written to date on the matter, with Thornton's several blogs at Plodder a close 2nd.

One thing both of them have on Scarborough's conjectures is unlike him, both of them have read the book.
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Lotie Moon's Sister, Ginny

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:09 pm

From a comment on the ED.com facebook site from a story they did in May

Toni Lynn Campbell Bercha
I didn't want to post this on your comment about Lottie Moon but do y'all know much about her sister Ginny? I was a docent at Elmwood Cemetery in Memphis where Virginia Moon is buried. She was one of my favorite figures to tell tourists about because it was so fun to juxtapose the two sisters. Ginny was a "Madame" and a confederate spy. She and her girls would hide guns, money, documents and whatever else was necessary in the stays of their dresses to move them across enemy lines. She was imprisoned several times and also was engaged many, many times to whichever officer could get her out of jail for being a spy. She was also a Hollywood actress late in her life. I love how that family produced two such different women who were both highly dedicated to their "causes". Of course that has nothing to do with your story. :)
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Lottie's sister Orrie fascinatin too

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:57 pm

I finally after two years got my hands on the Lottie biography. Only three pages on her relationship with Toy, but my reading is no way Lottie would be a part of Adrian Rogers shenanigans and the takeover. Kat Allen was right she would wince at what's done in her name, but Cat Allen hands are not clean. When she knew the facts in the early 70s she went with the legend to keep the money coming in for the annual Lottie Moon offering which didn't kick in as a big denominational money grabber till the mid 60s.

Warnock's review mighta covered that--two years ago now--but first read for me.

A remarkable woman indeed who as a 19 year old girl in her prep school on April Fools Day wrapped towels around the school bell in the tower. Lot of spunk, not the kind of woman who woulda had anything to do with Paige Patterson. If she were alive today I'm convinced she'd be alot like Rachel Held Evans, a friend of Anne Lamott, who admired Marilynne Robinson and corresponded with Tupelo Hassman, maybe even Alice McDermott and James Wood.
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Ginny Moon not related to SBC Lottie Moon

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:08 am

Ginny Moon did have a sister named Lottie, and they were of the same generation of the Virginia Moons, state of, but Ginny Moon referenced above who had all the boyfriends in Memphis, was of a Moon family from Ohio
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