The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

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The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:37 am

Last year there was an interesting discussion here on Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy under the usual oddball topic title scheme that Fox uses: Cat Allen fillets Paige Patterson. If one filtered out the extraneous stuff there, it was clear that there was skepticism of the standard narrative on Moon/Toy, that Moon ditched Toy because of his liberalism.

There is a new book on Lottie Moon by Yale educated historian Regina D. Sullivan. Perhaps folks here would be interested in her conclusions based on primary research into Moon's life.

I have a blog article on the subject with relevant links (The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy) and invite folks who have an interest in the matter to read it and react.

Thanks.
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Lottie Moon and Marilynne Robinson and the Tea Party

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:30 pm

I thank Dr. Thornton for his continued interest in this subject. I direct interested parties to the link at the end of the previous discussion currently locked in exchange between an Emory Grad and myself.
Direct it to the link profile of Author Sullivan from her hometown paper in Arkansas.

I will read and react at Thornton's blog soon.

As devoted as Thorton is to this matter, I continue to invite him to become as much the scholar of Marilynne Robinson as he is of Jonathan Edwards. My point continues to be, as I infer from several readings of Robinson who is as fascinated with John Calvin as Thornton is of Moon; that were Moon with us today, given her gifts and intellectual curiousity, with me Moon would be reading Robinson and Noll, and long time ago would have distanced herself from the Tea Party enthusiasms and misguided notions and abuse of Albert Mohler and Paige Patterson.

Maybe Emory will host Robinson soon, and Thornton will travel there to enlighted himself on Trajectories, or maybe I can meet him at Furman if Mohler and Jim Demint's Redeemer Prez PCA of Greenville, S.C. dont take us all down the drain.
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I read the blog and I made this comment

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Aug 01, 2011 5:10 pm

Now here's a link I hope Thornton's readers will cut and paste or google at the Benton Courier:

http://www.bentoncourier.com/content/fo ... ottie-moon

William of Barrow County has also posted at forums of Baptist Life dot com SBC Trends.
I have challenged him there to engage the thinking of Calvinist scholar and Pulitzer winner Marilynne Robinson on matters of experience and Dogma.
With Cat Allen who worshipped with me at the church where my Mother was baptized--David Currie and Mark Baggett were there with my then pastor and his wife, Francis Schaeffer disciples--Feb 24, 2002; I am convinced if nothing else Lottie Moon were she with us Today Would not: I repeat would not be an apologist for the Fundamentalist Takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.
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Nancy Sehested and Mr. Rogers Neighborhood

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:11 pm

Not my intent at all to hijack Dr. Thornton's topic--almost made a new thread out of this topic--but thought lot of common ground to wed Moon and Shehested together here; update in flesh and blood as it were on common theme of Dogma and experience

http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/6601/53/
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Mon Aug 01, 2011 7:26 pm

Start a new topic on Sehested if you want, Stephen. Don't put it here.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:13 pm

I have read a good bit of material on this as well. My suspicion is that there are clues that make it probable that there were theological differences between the two. Whether that led to the end of the relationship seems uncertain. In affairs of the heart, we may never be able to flesh that out, and I'm still not certain what the relevance of a 19th century romance has to do with the CR.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Tom Parker » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:25 pm

Dave:

I think for some they will attempt to tie everything back to the CR.

I often wonder how welcome Lottie would be in the SBC of 2011.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:04 pm

Guys, making a point about theological liberalism is not a stretch here. It is a valid point.

For how Lottie might view things today, a completely wasteful exercise, you might look at Bertha Smith who was in China, Shandong province, just half a decade after Lottie's death and who lived through most of the CR.
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Bertha Smith of Cowpens, South Carolina

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:31 pm

Not long ago Johnny Pierce had a story on a CBF woman in Texas who often prayed with Bertha in her prayer cuppalo at Bertha's home in Cowpens.
I do remember from my Dad vague memories of Bertha's recalcitrance at some Broad River Baptist Associational Meetings. To that end Thornton's take on Bertha may be right, she was no Stewart Newman.
I am still convinced and hope to find way to contact the author of the new book soon, there is no way Lottie were she with us today could find herself as an apologist for the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Tom Parker » Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:45 pm

William:

You said:"For how Lottie might view things today, a completely wasteful exercise, you might look at Bertha Smith who was in China, Shandong province, just half a decade after Lottie's death and who lived through most of the CR."

I consider it a completely wasteful exercise to try and tie Lottie Moone to the CR. I'll even say that it is just plain silly.

Just so you do not miss it. I do not see the CR through the lens that you do. It is not as all rosey as you try and paint it.
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REgina Sullivan's Own Words on Moon

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Aug 02, 2011 6:20 pm

Would be hard to see how the Moon of Sullivan's characterization would be comfortable with the 83 SBC Resolution on Women, and subsequent ones about first in the Fall. I can't see how if Sullivan understands her, would join Mohler and Patterson for a Lottie Moon Missions offerings Drive.
Looks to me like she would be much more comfortable with Molly Marshall and Carolyn Crumpler; Babs Baugh, Vestal and Buddy Shurden.

In my recently published study of Moon, I have stripped away the layers of misinformation that had built up since her death in 1912. As I looked closely at the primary sources, I found a woman whose life and work offers a view of nineteenth-century womanhood that corrects an understanding of them as passive and resigned to a domestic fate. Moon’s decision to go abroad as a pioneering single woman missionary was notable, to be sure. But her decision to advocate for the formation of the Woman’s Missionary Union and to argue for equal treatment of male and female missionaries moves her into the realm of activist and advocate. Only by removing the artifice of legend was I able to reveal the story of Moon’s unusual upbringing in Albemarle County, Virginia, her willingness to challenge gender norms and to support female organization.



From:

http://www.bwim.info/category/regina-sullivan/
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:10 pm

Tom Parker wrote:William:

You said:"For how Lottie might view things today, a completely wasteful exercise, you might look at Bertha Smith who was in China, Shandong province, just half a decade after Lottie's death and who lived through most of the CR."

I consider it a completely wasteful exercise to try and tie Lottie Moone to the CR. I'll even say that it is just plain silly.

Just so you do not miss it. I do not see the CR through the lens that you do. It is not as all rosey as you try and paint it.


If you've read my stuff for a while, you might find that I don't paint it all rosey myself.

What you will not find in any discussion of Moon and Toy by baptists of most any stripe is an argument that commends Toy's liberalism, although Tony Cartledge did call him 'heroic.'
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby David Flick » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:40 pm

Tom Parker wrote:William:

You said:"For how Lottie might view things today, a completely wasteful exercise, you might look at Bertha Smith who was in China, Shandong province, just half a decade after Lottie's death and who lived through most of the CR."

I consider it a completely wasteful exercise to try and tie Lottie Moone to the CR. I'll even say that it is just plain silly.

Just so you do not miss it. I do not see the CR through the lens that you do. It is not as all rosey as you try and paint it.

Tom, I was at the Summit (place where the 1979 SBC annual meeting was held) in Houston when Adrian Rogers was elected to be the first takeover president. I don't refer to that which occurred, beginning in 1979, as being a "Conservative Resurgence" because it was not. It was hostile takeover, but that's another story for another time.

Anyway, I vividly recall the moment when Dr. Wayne Dehoney pointed to the skyboxes where Pressler, Patterson, and minions were ensconced. He gave them a piece of his mind from the platform. I completely agree with you. The entire period from 1979 to the 1990's when the CBF came into existence was anything but "rosy." The latter half of those years were miserable for me.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Tom Parker » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm

David Flick:

William said the following on one of his posts at his blog site:"Occasionally, I wonder if the SBC would have been as well or better off if former SBC moderates were still around and involved, then I read about some of that group like C. Welton Gaddy (here) and get over it. Thank God for the CR.

That last sentence above "Thank God for the CR." makes me want to puke. So many people were hurt by the hostile takeover and the damage to people's lives continues to this very day.

The 2000 BF&M continues to be used to hurt people. So, I just do not see much to be thankful about from the 1979 till now debacle. But those that support the CR and 2000 BF&M probably view the people hurt as just those that needed to leave anyhow voluntarily or not, it just does not matter what happened to them and their families.

I know I am ranting but sometimes I need to.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby David Flick » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:19 am

Tom Parker wrote:David Flick:

William said the following on one of his posts at his blog site:"Occasionally, I wonder if the SBC would have been as well or better off if former SBC moderates were still around and involved, then I read about some of that group like C. Welton Gaddy (here) and get over it. Thank God for the CR.
    William is one of my dearest friends and I respect his gems of wisdom, but I disagree with his opinion of C. Welton Gaddy. I have tremendous respect for Gaddy, having heard him both preach and speak about religious liberty and separation of church and state. I own a copy of his book, First Freedom First: A Citizen’s Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of Church and State. Great book about an important topic...

1That last sentence above "Thank God for the CR." makes me want to puke. 2So many people were hurt by the hostile takeover and the damage to people's lives continues to this very day.
    1) You're not the only one, Tom. I feel exactly as you do when I hear or read that sentence. I am repulsed by the sentence... :brick:

    2) I was deeply hurt by the fundamentalist takeover. I never did fully recover. In fact, I'm no longer a Southern Baptist because of my opposition to the takeover movement.
The 2000 BF&M continues to be used to hurt people. So, I just do not see much to be thankful about from the 1979 till now debacle. But those that support the CR and 2000 BF&M probably view the people hurt as just those that needed to leave anyhow voluntarily or not, it just does not matter what happened to them and their families.

I know I am ranting but sometimes I need to.
    You have my permission to rant all you want...
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:13 am

Tom Parker wrote:William said the following on one of his posts at his blog site:"Occasionally, I wonder if the SBC would have been as well or better off if former SBC moderates were still around and involved, then I read about some of that group like C. Welton Gaddy (here) and get over it. Thank God for the CR.

That last sentence above "Thank God for the CR." makes me want to puke. So many people were hurt by the hostile takeover and the damage to people's lives continues to this very day.


Don't be puking bro, bad for the keyboard. I meant every syllable of that statement. If the CR had not occurred, we would be paying for people like Weldon Gaddy and their liberal political views. No thanks.

Tom Parker wrote:The 2000 BF&M continues to be used to hurt people. So, I just do not see much to be thankful about from the 1979 till now debacle. But those that support the CR and 2000 BF&M probably view the people hurt as just those that needed to leave anyhow voluntarily or not, it just does not matter what happened to them and their families.

I know I am ranting but sometimes I need to.
No problem with ranting.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:35 am

William Thornton wrote: Don't be puking bro, bad for the keyboard. I meant every syllable of that statement. If the CR had not occurred, we would be paying for people like Weldon Gaddy and their liberal political views. No thanks.


Is it any better to be paying for Richard Land's right wing views given in the name of the denomination. At least Gaddy never pretended that he spoke for Southern Baptists as Land does. A true Baptist knows that he or she never speaks for a group of Baptists. All are priests capable of speaking for themselves.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:51 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
William Thornton wrote: Don't be puking bro, bad for the keyboard. I meant every syllable of that statement. If the CR had not occurred, we would be paying for people like Weldon Gaddy and their liberal political views. No thanks.


Is it any better to be paying for Richard Land's right wing views given in the name of the denomination. At least Gaddy never pretended that he spoke for Southern Baptists as Land does. A true Baptist knows that he or she never speaks for a group of Baptists. All are priests capable of speaking for themselves.



Regarding Crawford Toy, I don't see anyone celebrating his Unitarianism. Surely we can commend Toy for trying to grapple with the relationship between Christianity and science.

William - as an Old Earth guy - are you more comfortable with the Young Eartherism that has become the orthodox position of your denomination or with some variant of theistic evolution? If the latter, you may have a thing or two in common with Brother Crawford.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Tom Parker » Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:03 pm

David Flick:

You said:"Anyway, I vividly recall the moment when Dr. Wayne Dehoney pointed to the skyboxes where Pressler, Patterson, and minions were ensconced."

Sadly, the minions are still at work in the SBC trying and sadly too often succeeding in getting removed anyone that does not see the Baptist world exactly the way they do--2000 BF&M being a good example.

The association that the church I attend just in the last week disfellowshipped a church that dared to call a woman Pastor.

Sadly, you know how these things are done--most of it out of the daylight so that others see can not see how mean and narrow-minded they are.

It is just like Washington DC--knowing the outcome before anything is done and then trying to act suprised at what happens.

As I said to someone at church last night--for the most parts nonchristians will never bother a christian's life, livelihood, but too often the harm is from those people who claim the name of Christ.

You've felt that sting from these "frioends" and so have many others.

The mass of SB do not have a clue how these things are done to Dom's, pastor's etc., because they are rarely given an opportunity to defend themselves.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:55 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:William - as an Old Earth guy - are you more comfortable with the Young Eartherism that has become the orthodox position of your denomination or with some variant of theistic evolution? If the latter, you may have a thing or two in common with Brother Crawford.


I'm not on board with theistic evolution, though I am an old earther. The young earthers are misguided geotheological Luddites trying to explain the inexplicable and ending up looking silly, not serious.

One of the great religious propaganda successes of the last half of the 20th century is young eartherism.
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Difference between Richard Land and Bryant Wright

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Aug 03, 2011 7:41 pm

Thursday, June 16, 2011

"I’m greatly concerned about the new idolatry in the church of elevating talk radio or Fox News before the word of God and the person of Jesus Christ when it comes to worldview. My friends, our worldview is to be shaped by the written word of God as we understand it and following Jesus Christ.’"
--Southern Baptist Convention President Bryant Wright addressing members of his denomination Tuesday (June 14) during their annual meeting in Phoenix.



Proud of Johnny Pierce for spotlighting that one in his monthly quotation page at Baps Today.

gonna share the quote with Dan Williams of God's Own Party which William desperately needs to read for the sustainability credibility quotient of his Plodder blog
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Neil Heath » Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:08 pm

William Thornton wrote:I'm not on board with theistic evolution, though I am an old earther. The young earthers are misguided geotheological Luddites trying to explain the inexplicable and ending up looking silly, not serious.

One of the great religious propaganda successes of the last half of the 20th century is young eartherism.

True indeed! Give that man a spur!!

Love the term "geotheological" too, William.
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby David Flick » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:28 am

William Thornton wrote:I'm not on board with theistic evolution, though I am an old earther. The young earthers are misguided geotheological Luddites trying to explain the inexplicable and ending up looking silly, not serious.

One of the great religious propaganda successes of the last half of the 20th century is young eartherism.

    Neil Heath wrote:True indeed! Give that man a spur!!

    Love the term "geotheological" too, William.
Sure thing, Neil. William is full of pithy gems of wisdom, many of which I heartily agree...

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          . . . . .William's spur
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby William Thornton » Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:43 am

Thanks David and Neil. I'll add it to my collection. I feel sure I have many more spurs than anyone else. I'm thinking of cashing them in and retiring. :)
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Re: The old, old story: Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:41 am

William Thornton wrote:Thanks David and Neil. I'll add it to my collection. I feel sure I have many more spurs than anyone else. I'm thinking of cashing them in and retiring. :)


What is the cash value of a spur? No one ever mentioned that to me.
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