Should A Southern Baptist Pastor Be Able To Do This?

[Alan Carter]

Should a Southern Baptist pastor, in a Southern Baptist church, with a Southern Baptist seminary degree, be permitted to do this?

Just wondering.

http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/

[Ed Pettibone]

[trich]

Ed - I agree, the Watchdog is too biased, don't read his stuff.

But perhaps you would read Tim Rogers' blog, as he addresses it also:

http://rebekah1.wordpress.com/2011/07/2 ... o-of-mine/

[Alan Carter]

In our glorious Southern Baptist world there is noone who can (or should) stop him other than his own church. Merritt has always been one of my favorite preachers and Southern Baptists but this causes me a bit of concern. Hopefully he is tithing off the profits.

I only posted that Jacksonville blog to stimulate conversation and it is by no means to be construed that I agree with him on much of anything. At least the blog post provoked some good thought and discussion.

[trich]

Alan - I disagree. The Georgia Baptist Convention should address this. The church is not capable of addressing it.

The GBC has no problem disfellowshipping a church for a woman preacher, and they also pass resolutions against blogging.

They certainly can address a pastor using his church facilities to host meetings of multi-level marketing schemes, especially those that are under investigation by the DOJ's in multiple states. The man actually is vouching for the crediiblity of the organization, saying they are "American Enterprise, par excellence". He invokes the name of Jesus Christ, and claims of "glorifying God" in being involved in a marketing scheme.

Certainly the GBC can do something, and should.

But they won't.

[Ed Pettibone]

ED: And (WD) Tom, if the state convention did something he would just have more money to play with would he not.

And in my opinion you all have been supporting charlatans for at least 32 years so why the surprise? And let me say I believe most of these guys started out as God Called preachers. Of course those who have read me on these boards know that I Jim Jones and Jimmy Baaker did also. Re-read Joel Gregory's Too Great A Temptation , if you haven't read it, do so post haste.

[trich]

As Alan said, at least I hope he tithes on his profits. Then it can't be all that bad, right?

[Alan Carter]

The Georgia Baptist Convention has absolutely no authority over a local church in a matter like this--even as much as some would like them to. If the church doesn't like it, then they can rise up and tell him not to do it or fire him and get someone else. Plenty of Baptist churches know how to do that for sure.

[Ed Pettibone]

[trich]

Alan - a resolution would be fine. A resolution condemning SBC churches for using their facilties to market questionable multi-level marketing. This could be based on scripture. And of course what does it say about the pastor, using his position and authority to entice people to invest in the scheme - nothing unbliblical about that?

And for good measure they could put an exception in the resolution: "....except for those pastors who do pay tithes on their filthy lucre."

[Haruo]

I thought churches were supposed to be about pooling your resources so you could buy more lottery tickets, so when God blessed one of you all would partake in the feast.

[Alan Carter]

Oh how I wish I could be a mega-church pastor these days. And I promise I would tithe 32% on my gains. Does anyone know of a good opening or do I have to wait until they run off Steve Gaines, Mac Brunson, or James Merritt?

[Ed Pettibone]

[Alan Carter]

Ed,

I appreciate those wise words of counsel; however, I hate golf and prefer to be paid for the work that I do and not what I can con people out of. Here are a few other requirements I think would help a person be a good mega-pastor:

1. Have a huge ego.
2. Have plenty of mirrors at home and in the office.
3. Have a staff that loves and adores you as well as does your every bidding.
4. A Deacon Chairman who is your brother in law.
5. A Personnel Committee Chairman who is your father in law.
6. Six kids that all have college degrees and can come to work for your church.
7. A five car garage.
8. An American Airlines platinum membership.
9. A first cousin who is a travel agent and specializes in trips to Israel.
10. It helps to live in a city that has a major league baseball team, basketball team, or NFL football team.
11. Your own golf cart and someone to drive it when you are playing golf.

[Gene Scarborough]

Funny, Alan!!!!

Modify your Staff loves you to -- If they don't kiss your feet each week, you can fire them and you have a more accurate picture!

Charles Stanley had his AmWay operation entitled "Stanley's Steamers." I was being enlisted in the 70's and Charles was the prima facia example of "success" and why pastors should join. As I saw it, it was a definite conflict of interest to counsel miserable young couples unhappy with their earning that "I have the perfect solution for you, so join my operation!"

"Buyer beware" is the perfect approach to this. Anyone stupid enough to be sucked in is just stupid and naive! AmWay was on the edge as a pyramid scheme. Their products aren't that great and the big deal is their circles of people starting new outfits under the "Direct."

I looked at the products / the scheme / the ethics and said, "Thanks, but no thanks!" to my enlistees who were members of my church. By the way, they were gone so much their children were perpetually smelly and uncontrolled. So much for great cleaning products and all the rest associated with AmWay!!!

[Dave Roberts]

I was also recruited to listen to the Stanley tapes so I would come aboard the Amway train. I saw it as a conflict of interest as well, and I was appalled by the theology of the presentations that were more pentecostal than Baptists.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

All of the above are signs of affluence and an almost mirror image of corporate grandeur.

Is this man's church just another corporate entity built around the statue of Christ rather than GM / Michelin / Adidas / etc.??? Add to that the statue of Stanley in the entrance to the church. He has a big Bible in his hand always and says, "Let me tell you this . . ." at least every 5 minutes of his current telecast (which is produced in a studio rather than the church sanctuary).

Since I am from Atlanta, I can share other things about Charles Stanley which are factual:
1) Grew us in the Pentecostal environment of an independent church
2) Was called as Associate Pastor to appease a part of the congregation wanting a fundy
3) Promised NOT to seek the pulpit if they let him be the Interim and preach each Sunday
4) Began to share privately with members how "God was calling him to be the next Pastor"
5) Brought the church to a divided position as the Pulpit Commmittee brought their candidate and the vote was split
6) Immediately after becoming Pastor the church's "top 10" giving to the CP went to nothing---they were buying buses and renovating the buildings + buying expensive TV prime time on WTBS (before satellite days)
7) Sent buses to every well-churched (white community) around metro Atlanta
Started promoting FBC as "the church to be in" if you wanted a spiritual time of worship
9) Ran big ads in the church section of the Atlanta Journal to that effect = more large expenditure on self-promotion
10) Never participated in joint ministereal meetings unless he was the speaker
11) To say he has an ego is a massive understatement
12) No sense of ethics with AmWay and loved to write and sell books
13) Gained national fame when WTBS went to satellite technology
14) Was the reason about half the old congregation left to join or form new mission-supporting Baptist churches
15) Quickly became the best-paid preacher in Atlanta with the largest Staff
16) Was on the Board for Jerry Falwell / Pat Robertson / etc. in the place of denominational connections until CR came along and gained complete control
17) Became the hub of an annual conference at FBC to teach other pastors how to build a big church

In sum it was a totally self-centered ministry bordering on personality worship. "I go to Charles Stanley's church" was the mantra of most members inviting friends to join them in the 'exciting growth.'

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed; He's not lazy is he? But Gene you left out the part about his saying that if he should ever be divorced he would resign his pastorate immediately but when it came about, he didn't even take a leave of absence. But these stories are like spiting against the wind. And I am reminded of what Jesus said when some of his disciples came to him with stories of others outside of their small band who where preaching in his name. And asking if they should stop them?

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

I purposely left off the scandalous personal stuff. I was not aware he had formally divorced. The last thing I heard from the distance of NC was that they had worked out some kind of reconciliation. Prior to that it was all the fault of his wife's "crazy" problems according to church spokesmen.

Also he has a son who has left his staff and his parenting over "undisclosed reasons."

You are right about the corruption of preachers through the ages. I hesitate to burst anyone's bubble when they think his TV program is great and he is so wonderful. Let him do all he can to propigate the Gospel and then "buyer beware." I hope Jim Bakker did more good than harm, but it certainly wasn't pretty. Worshipers of personality and big show seldom make good current followers of the Great Servant, Jesus, the Christ.

[William Thornton]

[Gene Scarborough]

William--

While you may consider Stanley "old business," where do these new guys learn these stunts????

Everything here on Merritt has been sketchy. He has been somewhat of a rascal for some years.

He was at the fast-grow Snellville Baptist Church. It was in another fast-grow area of Atlanta and those are always required for significant church size growth. It starts with multitudes of people wanting to "go to a good church." Many of them are age 30-50 who see church going as essential to financial success and social acceptance in the new community they have joined.

At Snellville, he ran into trouble when he wanted the church to give him more absolute power in decision-making. It didn't float and he went to his present church. I understood some "church splitting" was involved. This whole thing is ego-centric and driven by a lust for wealth. Since when does a servant-pastor make a six-digit income far greater than most of his members???? Then he still wants more money in his private activities.

So how does one run a growing business and have time to minister to his people in their needs???

[Ed Pettibone]

[Alan Carter]

I have personally known and worked with many of today's mega-church pastors and to say the least, they share many of the same personality traits. Getting to know them is a blessing in their opinions.

[Neil Heath]