The Hoax

[Ed Pettibone]

[Alan Carter]

It sure doesn't take much to get you guys sniping and arguing with each other does it? Adult discussions of the posts would be a lot more interesting.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Alan Carter]

I think the hoax itself was either a pathetic joke or a sick attempt at discrediting Southern Baptists. I doubt seriously if it had anything to do with the CR. On the other hand, I do think the SBC could and should examine their treatment of gay believers. I know of very few that would actually welcome a gay person but then of course they have deacons and deacons' wives who gossip, overeat, and have affairs. I haven't heard many sermons on those though.

[johnfariss]

[Jim]

[johnfariss]

Jim,

Your post of Wednesday, July 6 at 8:33 AM quoted me by name. You said I offended you, or rather that "I resent it," i.e., what I said, which I took to mean you were offended, so I apologized. Now you say, "You must have someone else in mind," and "I have no idea what any of this means." Are there two "Jim's" on this board from Lexington, Kentucky, both of whom joined Jan. 8, 2006 at 3:44 PM? If so, my comments are directed to the other Jim. If you have no idea what I'm talking about . . . so be it, but I think you are smarter than that. Frankly, that and your monologue about dishonest/honest agreement/disagreement comes off to me as a bit disingenious. And that to me is a red flag.

John

[Jim]

[johnfariss]

Jim,

You apparently think I am making a big deal of logic. I do not see it that way; while I used the word, on the contrary you seem to be the one making a big deal it it. So what?

And yes, your definition of disingenious is spot on.

You said, "I simply insisted that people are not animals and operate only on a human level – made that way by God. You apparently disagree." Jim, that is an gross over-simplification of anything I said.

Finally--and then I will bow out, hoping only for some real dialogue in the future rather than this sort of thing--your line, "I’ve been aware of much of what those encumbered by their Ph.D’s have written/spoken and discovered that, no matter their certified intelligence," suggests that you have some disdain for higher education. I hope this is not accurate.

John

[David Montoya]

This post has gotten a lot of attention. The subject does hit a nerve. And, as was stated earlier by Haruo, I am definitely not pro-homosexual in my view of our culture. I am for equal treatment under the law. My concern with this hoax is how it mocks and makes light of a particular religious perspective.

What if the hoax was turned the other way. What if a Southern Baptist had committed such a hoax involving Queer Nation or Act-Up by stating how they had decided homosexuality was sinful and how they were going to get the old DSM view of it being a mental illness reinstated in the next edition. What would the reaction have been?

There seem to be homosexual fundamentalists (and I use that term in the sense of forcing one's perspective on others) who want to impose their views with the same zeal as a radical religious fundamentalist.

If this hoax was intended to create discussions in Baptist life, then it has succeeded.

Not to bash the SBC, for the church I serve is a contributing member, but I wonder what Paul Pressler's perspective on this would be?

[Gene Scarborough]

Paul Pressler just "might" have a problem explaining why he was denied a Federal Judgeship over discoveries by the FBI of questionably close realationships to some of his male aides!!!

W.A. Criswell has equally questionable activities with a "close friend" at the YMCA who was a Greek Orthodox clergyman who committed suicide within months of Criswell's death. Also, his wife made a strange observation after his sermon series about marital "do's and don'ts" as she simply said, "He doesn't know what he's talking about!" (source: "Too Great A Temptation" by Joel Gregory)

Who really knows, but wouldn't it be hilarious if 2 instigators of Conservative Resurgence had sexual identity "issues!"

[Jim]

[Jim]

[Jim]

[Gene Scarborough]

It's NOT wierd, nor is it imagined----SORRY!!!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

The idea that the the SBC somehow deserves to have this "hoax" pulled on them because they hold to a doctrinal conviction that is supported by an interpretation of scripture that is shared by most conservative Evangelicals and likely by a majority of American Christians is absurd. It's about as abusurd as the idea that somehow the convention was "taken over" by some outside group in 1979. The "outsiders" have long since been overwhelmingly affirmed by substantial majority votes at hundreds of meetings, from the associational level to the national convention. The alternative groups, particularly CBF, have long held open a door for dissenters through which a small trickle of interest entered, a fraction of the churches and members of churches in the SBC, and through which in recent years many churches have exited back into the SBC. Few of the churches that chose to cast their lot with CBF did so by severing ties completely with the SBC, fewer than 150 out of a claimed 1,800, representing less than 5% of the total number of churches and members in the SBC. And I sincerely believe CBF very likely represents the full constituency of moderate Baptists within the denomination. I don't think they will find much in the way of remaining support in the SBC. The CBF door has been open wide for a long time, and it hasn't attracted very many Baptists.

[David Flick]

.
.Conversation score to date: Ed - 4, Gene - 0

[Gene Scarborough]

Flick has flacked and I stand humbled before you!!!!

When you read "Too Great A Temptation," Ed, let me know and then we can have a more intelligent discussion about the nature of Criswell and Pressler. Until then, I have nothing more to say about the matter.

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

Actually this thread seems to have taken quite a few twists. It has become a series of curve balls between Gene and Jim. It began with a simple chuckle over a planted hoax that no one took seriously. I don't see how CBF was drawn into this fray or what the number of uniquely and dually aligned churches in CBF has to do with the SBC hoax. Nothing as far as I can tell. CBF has certainly not pushed GLBT folks for pastorates. I'm feeling that a dead horse has been beaten to death from both sides.

[Gene Scarborough]

[Alan Carter]

Its interesting how sour grapes have a tendency to come out so quickly in those who despise the SBC and its leaders. Having known both Mrs. Criswell and Joel Gregory, I would tend to dismiss his statements as sour grapes. She was much too strong a woman to be intimidated by Gregory. Its kind of a pathetic thing to hear people try to discredit Dr. Criswell when he's not here to defend himself. I would imagine the same ones would rise up in arms if we were to denigrate some of their dear departed liberal leaders. Enough is enough of this kind of junk and inuendo.

[Sandy]

I find absolutely nothing in the "public record" related to Pressler's quest for a federal judgeship that mentions relationships with his male aids. What really happened was a letter writing campaign by some disgruntled, frumped up Baptist moderates to then President GHW Bush accusing Pressler of religious bigotry related to his activities with the SBC, and throwing in a few accusations of misuse of public funds to make the President back off of the appointment. The only thing, interestingly enough, that the FBI investigation turned up was that he'd run off some copies of some SBC related stuff on a copier belonging to Harris County. Fearing that the inuendos and leaks would torpedo the nomination in the Senate, Bush offered Pressler a seat on the drug council instead.

Gregory's book is neither accurate, nor an authoritative resource on the activities of W.A. Criswell, making your statement hearsay, or should I say, gossip, plain and simple.

There's no doubt that Paul Pressler, W.A. Criswell, Paige Patterson, and several others whose names come to the forefront of discussions of the Conservative Resurgence, used strong armed political tactics and assumed a lot of authority through influence and association that they were never given by messengers or the convention in pushing a denominational political agenda that eventually led to a shift in the leadership of the SBC. But it wold have been hard to imagine that anything else would have dragged the SBC's moribund, entrenched, liberal leaning leadership back to where the churches, and the people in the pews, wanted it to be. The hard ball, iron fisted political tactics, nepotism and influence peddling used by the SBC's moderate leaders prior to 1979 was one of the reasons Pressler and Patterson got so much support for their movement. Pressler paid a price with his career and Clinton's election prevented any further chance at a federal appointment. Criswell's church pushed him to step into a "pastor emeritus" status from which he was forced to sit on the sidelines and watch Joel Gregory ruin the church he and George Truett had pastored for 100 years.

Making inuendos about alleged, unproven actions doesn't help your cause. It calls your credibility into question.

And, BTW, even if the conservative resurgence had never happened, the SBC would still not ever have abandoned the position that homosexuality is a sin. As the largest group formed in opposition to the conservative resurgence, CBF has yet to change their position, and has actually taken action to disfellowship and defund organizations that hold the opposite view.

[Gene Scarborough]

So----Is Dr. Criswell such a god that he had no faults????

Anyone in that much of the public eye gets looked at closely. Like it of not, he was the mastermind of the Conservative Resurgence. Anyone so egotistical as to claim that the ghost of George W. Truett came to him in a dream and told him that God had destined him to be the next pastor of FBC Dallas, bears a close look.

It was a great change---and where Truett sought Autonomy and cooperation when the great controversy broke out engineered by J. Frank Norris---Criswell sought to rule, not only in his church, but in all things SBC.

PLEASE don't think for one minute that all Criswell claimed was "of God" was really "of God!!!"