The Hoax

[Gene Scarborough]

Jim---

If you re-read what you wrote, I fail to see how it could be called "direct."

Let me hasten to say I do not in any way condone homosexual behaviour. I would not want to be on a jury dealing with an adult soliciting a child as I would advocate the removal of his tool for doing such!!! The Defense Attorney would be wise to make sure I didn't stay for the trial. He would also be wise to make sure if his client got off I didn't allow my chipping machine to eat him in an "accident."

However, I have never seen a field of cows and bulls where one was not trying to mate with a same-sex occupant of the field. The same is true of dogs humping one another---both male or female. The sex urge is just a part of the animal kingdom and we are a part of such.

Further HOWEVER, God has made us to have self-control over unnatural urges and actions. Were we true to our nature from God, no homosexual-oriented human would ever molest another and use them for personal gratification. Sadly, even the heterosexual are constantly urged these days to be so sexual the thoughts and urges begin to control us and make us think it's OK to live together before committing to marriage.

It is a sad day when every town becomes another Sodom or Gomorah. I have pastored churches in places where it was so, and since I didn't go along and ignore it---guess who got fired----TWICE!!! I glory in the fact I didn't sacrifice my integrity nor that of the Bible to "just get along and move to a bigger Sodom / Gomorah."

Have you ever paid such a price in your own integrity on sexual matters????

[Jim]

[T. D. Webb]

[Gene Scarborough]

Jim---

I think you are naive to deny our animal nature which is mixed with the divine spark given by God in his creation of mankind.

We have a choice as to being "just animalistic" or discovering our divine nature. Sadly, these days, too many are choosing the basic instincts rather than to rise above it.

Avarice and greed are of animals. Love and kindness along with sacrifice and sharing have to do with our godly aspect.

LIke it of not----we have choices to make.

[Jim]

[johnfariss]

Jim, I think you are looking at the creation account and emphasizing the differences--which are significant--while Gene is looking at the same account and emphasizing the similarities--which also are significant. We are not told exactly what this "being made in the image of God" means, while the Hebrew, as I recall from Seminary, suggests both were "manufactored" in the same manner. Could it be you are a little too eager to disagree with Gene?

John

[Dave Roberts]

In describing our human nature, I like John Bunyan's phrase, "Akin to the clod and akin to God."

[Jim]

[Gene Scarborough]

[Jim]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Jim]

[Haruo]

Wait a minute, Jim. What sexual acts can you picture Jesus doing? I have trouble picturing any, and I'm not doctrinally wed to the notion of the perpetual virginity of Jesus, let alone his mom. If Jesus wouldn't do them, no one may. (That's you're formulation.) Which makes the Shakers right on that point, though the jury is still out on their position on the gender of the Second Coming of Christ.

[Haruo]

I hate to belabor the obvious [no you don't, Leland, you enjoy it!], but the notion that the biblical report of the sexual behavior of the men of Sodom (or rather, of their intended behavior, since they didn't actually get away with doing it) is no more clearly a condemnation of committed monogamous sexual relationships between male couples (let alone Lesbian ones) than is the behavior of OJ Simpson or Ted Bundy clearly a condemnation of committed monogamous sexual relationships between couples of opposite gender. Insisting that the former is true while the latter is not constitutes, as far as I'm concerned, bearing false witness after a fashion (or at least engaging in false reasoning with the intent to harm others). I do not know that the SBC has corporately ever endorsed such false reasoning, and I know that neither TD nor Jim is SBC (at least I don't think they are), but I am inclined to suspect that this particular bit of false reasoning leading to unjustified condemnation has been a significant factor in the SBC's attitudes and behaviors that occasioned the Hoax.

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed---

There comes a time when the Moneychangers need to be beaten from the Temple steps. Jesus did it as a last resort and we should have the same courage when liars and thieves occupy the offices and portals of the SBC today.

No large religious organization is devoid of political intreague. Even the local church can be pastored by one pandering to his own career rather than clearly teaching and living what the Bible says.

Sometimes, it is necessary to take the whip rather than the towel. The towel is the preferred tool for me, but I am capable of taking up a whip when necessary.

How about you????

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

[Neil Heath]

[Gene Scarborough]

Ed / Dave / Neil---

Many of us are trained to be like wet pups when it comes to defending oneself. We focus on the "turn the other cheek" approach in hopes our foe will see the light and change his ways.

The Jews had this hope with the Nazis, but it had ZERO effect to turn down the heat of the crematorium ovens. What is most interesting is the lack of concern expressed by Christians then. The Nazi reign took place in a culture which considers itself far advanced from others in theological discourse. That proves it is possible to be so intellectually religious that ethics go out the window. I think this was true among the Pharisees who had turned God's House into a "den of thieves."

Matthew 23 is another place where you see the wrath of Jesus clearly expressed---so I fail to see how he would advocate at all times turning the other cheek or taking anything doled out by corrupt religious leaders. Ultimate judgement will certainly rectify things, but . . .

What do we do in the meantime?

In the case of the SBC, we wisely decided to walk separate paths and therein to find happiness and joy I find in CBF circles.

I cannot applaude the belicose status in Israel as they make non-Jews leave their homes of 300+ years at the point of a gun. I can see the reason for their obsession for a "Jews only" country, but the price and the turmoil is a constant threat to world peace. Those who hold interminable grudges and desires for revenge hurt themselves more than their enemy, in my view. That's where Jesus' admonition to "love your enemy and do good to those who persecute you" has its greatest effect. Ghandi and MLK made great strides with non-violent protest and won great victories in the long haul. They were dealing with a society where there was a modicum of conscience and humanity. Injustice is a hard thing to deal with.

And Ed----I kept bringing up stuff over at SBC Voices to the point I was moderated off and blocked from further input. In a way it has been a blessing not to waste time casting my pearls before swine. Too many of the participants there enjoy being mean and abusive, yet continue to be welcome. I hope this gives you an idea of what I endured before finding a welcome for my, sometimes, non-conventional take on things religious here at BaptistLife.

[Ed Pettibone]

Gene S.; [quote]And Ed----I kept bringing up stuff over at SBC Voices to the point I was moderated off and blocked from further input. In a way it has been a blessing not to waste time casting my pearls before swine. Too many of the participants there enjoy being mean and abusive, yet continue to be welcome. I hope this gives you an idea of what I endured before finding a welcome for my, sometimes, non-conventional take on things religious here at BaptistLife. {/quote]

Ed: I can't speak to what happens at SBC voices, I have not ventured over there very often. A few times Fox fox has mentioned a hot topic and i have taken a look I do not have time to waste with folk who see Mohler, More, Patterson and Akin as heroes. I have however had a few encounters over here with with some of their regulars who have ventured this way. I have never seen them being any where near as nasty as several of the Fighting fundamentalist that Flick and i did battle with the first 3 or 4 years of this Site. Or on the old SBCNet before that. And Gene toleration and welcome are not synonyms.

[Gene Scarborough]

"toleration and welcome are not synonyms" ----please define, Ed.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

If you can pick the nit, then so can I!!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Why don't we just stop this silly diatribe and do something more useful, Ed????