David Rogers Prays with Women Pastors

[Stephen Fox]

[Sandy]

First paragraph written by Rogers:

"Let me get this out of the way right off the bat. Most of you who read this blog on a regular basis should already be aware that I am a convinced complementarian, and I do not believe that women ought to occupy the role of elder/bishop/pastor in a local church. I agree with everything the Baptist Faith & Message 2000 has to say about this issue."

So what's your point, Fox?

[William Thornton]

Fox may have a point, he can explain it, but I would say that there are not a few SBCers who don't think that women as senior pastor in a church should lead to exclusion of that church from a state convention or association. So far as I am aware, the SBC has never excluded a church for having a female senior pastor, but state conventions and local associations have.

The stance of many in the SBC is that we must take action against churches who have women as senior pastors. I don't see the value in that.

[David Montoya]

William,

I have struggled long with this issue. I believe as Baptists, we put the authority of who a church has as a pastor in the hands of that church and God. We voluntarily cooperate with associations, state Conventions, and National conventions. We have not defined what that cooperation is based on very well, thus associations and conventions have started acting as though they are churches.

In my family, I have a two daughters that believe a woman should not be the pastor of a church. I have one daughter who is an ordained pastor (and I can assure you most vigorously she is not "daddy-called"). I have an ordained son-in-law that is BF&M 2000 all the way. In spite of many theological differences we have great family times. Again, what is the reason for our cooperation and what does the gender of a local church pastor have to do with this?

My concern overall is the loss of theological reflection in so many of our churches. When they call a pastor, are they sure they are following the will of God or the best sales effort presented to them?

[johnfariss]

"My concern overall is the loss of theological reflection in so many of our churches. When they call a pastor, are they sure they are following the will of God or the best sales effort presented to them?"

Well put, David! If more churches (and, yes, pastors) would recognize this, and do the hard work of thinking for themselves, the result just might be two-fold: one that we have just as much diversity as we presently have, perhaps even more so, and two, that the situation becomes much less divisive and polarized than it presently is because we (like the 18th century Baptists John Leland wrote about) learn to "think and let think."

John Fariss

[Sandy]

I don't see any value in rudeness, or in arrogance, when it comes to situations where members of churches with women pastors are part of a group or event with those who interpret the scripture in a way that they feel doesn't permit a woman to serve in that capacity. I wouldn't see the value in the SBC declaring a church with a female pastor to not be "in friendly cooperation", even though that would not be in accordance with the BFM 2000.

It seems, though, that as time has moved on, the issue of women pastors has become a litmus test of fellowship among moderate Baptists, and by golly, they're going to jam it down your throat whether you want it or not. Maybe, at some point in the struggle to control the SBC, moderate Baptist leadership thought that the SBC's position on women in the pastorate would cause the women of the SBC's churches to rise up in righteous indignation, depose the "fundamentalists" from their positions and invite the old, exclusive SBC royalty back into control. It sometimes even seems that they've attempted to turn the WMU into the feminist activists of the SBC. They just don't seem to get that the vast majority of women in SBC churches have no pastoral ambitions, and believe that the Biblical role of women in ministry in the church is a different one from that of the men. Most of the activists have left the denomination by now, and have discovered that the alternative Baptists aren't much more settled on the thought of having a female pastor than the Southern Baptists they left.

But you'll still have antagonists, like Ethics Daily or Bruce Prescott, or some board members here, jump up with the occasional attack on the SBC using this issue.

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

There are several things involved here:

(1) David Rogers has not fallen far from his heritage from Adrian = hard-nosed and narrow
(2) The battle over women pastors in the SBC was lost the second BF&M 2000 became a new creed rather than guide
(3) A major change in outlook over women in the pulpit will not be done quickly, but it is definitely happening among us
(4) The churches I know who have them find in women a special caring not often attached to male clergy

A couple of years ago SBTS had a competition among its Seniors to present their best sermon. I looked at it and it contained as many women as men. When I listened to the women I was amazed at the quality of female sermons. They were well-reasoned / clear / concise. Compared to the average man, I concluded that the women had an edge in that particular competition.

To adapt the famous Beetles song: "Give Women a Chance!"

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Jim]

[Sandy]

[David Montoya]

In a discussion with a Lutheran friend, he brought up the idea that one reason there is even a desire for women to be "Senior Pastors" is because we have developed a warped sense of authority. We have made the role of pastor to be the "top dog" and everything else is cast in a supporting role.

I often wonder when I read about the "authority" some preachers claim and if they really understand what Jesus said (paraphrase), "if you want to lead, you must serve." There is a lot of emphasis on being the "boss", getting the big bucks, and expecting folks to do what a preacher says when the example set by those preachers is questionable.

Scripture says there is neither male nor female in the Kingdom, however, to the best of my knowledge, we do not become gender-neutral when we are saved. I am wondering and restudying my own views in relationship to the office I know I was called to serve and God's work in the midst of a fallen, sin dominated world. Would God be unfair if he designated a particular role in the local church to be held by male? Now, because of the Scripture, I have no doubt about the office of deacon (Romans 16:1 - and love the CSV note one this verse), nor that the church calls deacons (Acts 6) and that deacons are to make decisions about the use of the material possessions of the church.

If I wanted to be a mother, if human law said it was my equal right to be a mother, and if the church voted I could be a mother, that would not change the reality I could not be in any natural way a mother. Perhaps this is a weak analogy, but the concepts it presents are issues I am working to understand.

[johnfariss]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Come on Sandy. You have got to be kidding right?

Very few women serve on committees and boards of the SBC. Very few women serve on the faculty of SBC seminaries.

The same can be said about African-Americans.

How can you say that the SBC is as supportive of women in ministry when they rarely, if ever, place women in ministry positions of leadership?

Yes, women play a significant role at the local church level. But are they really on equal-footing with men in a denominational setting? Casual observations and certainly numbers would lead one to say NO.

I thought you were sympathetic to folks like Burleson and McKissic who, time and time again, have readily acknowledged the second-class position of women in the denominational ranks.

[Tim Bonney]

[johnfariss]

[Jim]

Pastors have generated much of their troubles accruing to “authority.” While Jesus (and by extension the pastor) was a shepherd by his own definition and therefore a caring entity, he was also the shepherd who told the sheep where to go, when to do it, and worth jerking up by the scruff of the neck when it strayed, slinging it over his shoulder (those pastoral pix in the sanctuaries notwithstanding) and getting on with it. The sheepfold was a rather bare place and the sheep were not there for entertainment, cajoling or other “tenderness” moments. Finding the balance between servant-hood and authority is not easy today, but, by and large, pastors have bent over backwards to be all things to all people – an impossibility, with the result being that he/she is just one of the boys/girls, not actually the leader of anything, spiritual or otherwise. Pastors are too busy being “nice,” when being brutally frank would be far more honest and ultimately more effective. Denominations and churches are either stagnating or sliding downward rapidly (especially the mainliners) because the churches, largely as the result of poor pastoring, are obsessed with the perceived world’s demands rather than those of God, especially the ones that are black/white with no shades of gray. There’s a difference between “pastoring” and “pasturing.” The shepherd knew this.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

Sandy, didn't you once do an article about all the inbreeding and interlocking trustee boards in the SBC? And didn't you find that many (most?) women who are on the major boards are either megapastor wives or are in the major churches?

I would ask my fellow Southern Baptists, along with whatever ex=Southern Baptists who are here,how about naming the most prominent SBC leader who is female.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Jim]