SBC and Birtherism

[Jim]

Let me share a story from Haiti where a friend of mine visited the joint compound of Billy and Franklin which is shared. He observed the hate each outfit has for the other. It was replete with an expensive helocopter which could have bought how many trucks and how much food and clothes???? You figure.

I read Franklin's autobiography some years ago. It is the story of a son doing all kinds of evil to try and get his dad's attention since Billy was gone so much from home. He was hardly a righteous son of whom to be proud. Neither is his pay to his wife and children who run Samaritan's Purse near Boon, NC. It appears to be about money and fame and the two shall not be parted. So why would I be jealous of someone making big bucks conning people into support which has a large pay-out to those running it----something Billy NEVER HAD!

Another interesting aspect to my NC residence status is the opportunity to hear, first hand, of the activities and jealousy going on over Billy's Heritage Center in Charlotte. They can't seem to agree with what to do with daddy and whether to follow his simple wishes to be buried beside his beloved Ruth. This is the children who are split wide and far over how to carry on their father's legacy.

The little rhyme was interesting, but badly off in it's assessment of my outlook.At least you got it right that I live on the Pamlico River---and far from the mega church /evangelistic associations. I just talk with my neighbors about spiritual matters which concern them---and cut and doctor trees for a fair price. I'm happy and one never will be if he is jealous!

The auditor’s report, including particulars, of Samaritan’s Purse (not just an organization document) was submitted last year for the year 2009 and is available on the Internet. Total support and revenues - $320,578,664; Total expenses - $319,620,626. Ministry expense – 89%; Fundraising – 6%; General/Administrative – 5%. How many churches give 89% of their income to missions?

Franklin is head of both BGEA and SP, so your friend’s remarks about Haiti are suspect at best, a fabrication (probably through jealousy) at worst. Your caterwauling about the helicopter is silly since the best if not the only way to get around then was by air. He has at least one plane I would be afraid to fly in…looks like an old C-47 (before your time most likely).

Franklin’s youth and family resemble most others in some aspects – except yours, which is absolutely perfect, of course – so your snide judgment is as sounding brass. In any case, SP slogs ahead in spite of Franklin’s profound sins. You have none, of course…sins, that is.

Keep talking to your neighbors about spiritual matters…commendable. In the meantime, Franklin will keep using that 89% to match his talk (never failing to give the gospel message even to his tormentors on the talk-shows) with the walk. Talk is cheap, but walking the talk doesn’t happen easily. But, then, of course, you already know that – right?

[Gene Scarborough]

Jim---

Great retort----if you can't accept the truth, then try and make the teller of it into a liar / pervert / you name it.

And how much of a $3M budget does administration deserve??? Can you trust the SP figures on Administration.

The animosity between SP and BGEA was palpable according to a friend who is not prone to lying!!!!

[Jim]

I oppose the disaster that is the Obama presidency not because of where he was or wasn't born, but because of what he is trying to do to America. I will continue to oppose him until the first week in November of 2012 (and after that if he gets reelected) not because of some conspiracy, but because I believe his policies are both damaging and damning to America.

Obama’s righteous rhetoric regarding the fact that he was against the Iraq action (though he wasn’t even in the Senate then and didn’t have a vote, meaning that he doesn’t know what he would have done) is buried forever in infamy account his unprovoked and bloody invasion of Libya, without even consultation with Congress, much less approval. He’s contributed to no telling how many deaths of Libyans, not to mention those who have been egregiously injured, all on the whim of a political novice who had so little sense of his actions that he gave the “kill” order, then fled to Brazil to announce it and then vacationed for a few days. He is so disgusting as to make this country ashamed and he has presented the image of this country in the Middle East as either collectively as dumb as a gourd or with an agenda of colonization. My rant continues here: Obama’s Unspeakable Jihad & Fifth Column. Call that racism if you like because I don’t give a fig.

I wouldn't call it racism, Jim. It's just that your position has absolutely no basis in fact, which I simply label ignorance. And though most racism is rooted in ignorance, your position is hard to pin down, somewhere between tragic and hilarious. You have no credibility on this subject.
Also, Jim, I believe the topic here is related to Southern Baptists and the birther issue, not your completely misinformed and distorted opinion on Obama administration policy in the middle east.

In the first place, I was responding to a specific paragraph, just as you did in responding to mine – nothing about “birther” stuff. So…the pot and kettle thing is in play, not that it matters. Surprisingly, you must have read the article. Everything in it is based on fact. There was no threat from Libya to this country, so national security was not an issue. The U.S. does not buy Libyan oil, so no national interest in even that was an issue. The Defense Department PUBLICLY told the president his little war was ill-advised – a matter of record all over the media. In Russia, Defense Secretary Gates indicated that he didn’t know what was going on when he described the president’s adventure as “on the fly, something never done before.” There was no appearance before the Congress since the president knew his foray into military matters wouldn’t fly there…another war to join the other two still in progress. He DID take a five-day vacation (called something else, I’m sure, but just a fun trip on the big plane for the whole family) after his announcement that he was going to bomb the bejesus out of Libya but wasn’t looking to kill Qaddafi or effect a regime-change, something no one but you, apparently, believed. His action was called the establishing of a no-fly zone but only the most gullible believed that, especially when it became clear that he had simply taken a side in a civil war…unilaterally…the UN was a nothing in this. The action is now called “protecting the people,” when everyone can see that what started as Obama’s little weekend escapade has become a bloodbath instituted by the U.S. for all the world to see. His action was billed as “humanitarian!” What a laugh! He did exactly what the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor in December 1941.

The most humiliating aspect of the entire fiasco was that decent, honorable American GIs, on orders of their commander-in-chief, visited death and destruction on unsuspecting Libyans who just happened to be in the wrong place. This hammering has gone on now for nearly six weeks. Qaddafi may eventually go and probably be succeeded by worse butchers, but this country’s part in the affair is lurid, beyond the pale.

[Gene Scarborough]

Holy cow!!!!!

It's been a long time since I read such blind allegiance to the Republican line that "A democratic President can do no right!"

So George Bush can put us in Iraq with a lie about Weapons of Mass Destruction / institute a hell hole at Guantanamo / put in a "national security" blanket to deprive both citizens and Middle Eastern visitor of their civil rights, but because he is a
"Super Christian ex-alcoholic who failed at every business he attempted" become your golden God!!!! His buddy, VP Cheney, can get bids for private contracting in Iraq for Hilburton without the first competitive bid. We can then whip the bejesus out of supposed "enemy forces" who only have to wear a turban to be deemed so. We don't have Osama yet either--and why the heck were we going after Sadam when he didn't command a Terrorist unit---it was Osama, my brother.

Then, Brother George gets by with a long list of clear warnings about 9/11 and NOT ONE military fighter launched under a protocol standing order to intercept and force down any hijacked aircraft---4 of which flew over the most heavily Air Forced part of this country during some 45 minutes to impact from hijacking. Countermand of Standing Orders ONLY takes place under the Commander-In-Chief= duh.

Are you dreaming / sucking up every distortion the Republicans can offer / or just plain "ignernt" as we say in Eastern NC???

[Jim]

Jim---

Great retort----if you can't accept the truth, then try and make the teller of it into a liar / pervert / you name it.

Kind of liked that retort myself. It's called TRUTH. Try it some time, but not on an empty stomach. You may have a reaction.

And how much of a $3M budget does administration deserve??? Can you trust the SP figures on Administration.

Actually, it's $320M. I trust the certified auditor's report. It's all above board and that sticks in your craw. Hatred causes choking, so be careful.

The animosity between SP and BGEA was palpable according to a friend who is not prone to lying!!!!

I can just bet that any friend of yours thought it was. He probably thinks Jesus slipped out at night, too.

[Jim]

Holy cow!!!!!

Right animal...wrong country, but you're welcome to join your brethren in Mumbai (Bombay, in case you've forgotten) and even take a purifying dip in the Ganges (not nearly as holy as the Pamlico, though).

It's been a long time since I read such blind allegiance to the Republican line that "A democratic President can do no right!"

Might have been a long time since you read anything but Obama boilerplate, by whom you are obviously enthralled.

So George Bush can put us in Iraq with a lie about Weapons of Mass Destruction / institute a hell hole at Guantanamo / put in a "national security" blanket to deprive both citizens and Middle Eastern visitor of their civil rights, but because he is a
"Super Christian ex-alcoholic who failed at every business he attempted" become your golden God!!!!

Well...at least you're not prejudiced, though you seem to have forgotten that the intel agencies of the largest countries all agreed about the WMD, as did the Congress. St. Joe Biden voted for the war as did John Kerry before he voted against it. But then he thought he was in Cambodia once, when he was not there, so what do you expect? As for golden gods, the only one I know of was prepared by Aaron and eaten by the people. But if you think George is a golden god, be my guest.

His buddy, VP Cheney, can get bids for private contracting in Iraq for Hilburton without the first competitive bid. We can then whip the bejesus out of supposed "enemy forces" who only have to wear a turban to be deemed so. We don't have Osama yet either--and why the heck were we going after Sadam when he didn't command a Terrorist unit---it was Osama, my brother.

I didn't know you had a brother named Osama, but I'd keep it quiet. In the pictures I saw they wore more than turbans. Some had on uniforms and some even wore guns. The dear leader who walks the Potomac hasn't found Osama, either, so why not? Didn't he promise to get him?

Then, Brother George gets by with a long list of clear warnings about 9/11 and NOT ONE military fighter launched under a protocol standing order to intercept and force down any hijacked aircraft---4 of which flew over the most heavily Air Forced part of this country during some 45 minutes to impact from hijacking. Countermand of Standing Orders ONLY takes place under the Commander-In-Chief= duh.

The sign of utter desperation in posting on the this Forum is bringing up the TRUTHER stuff. Surely you can do better than that. DUH!

Are you dreaming / sucking up every distortion the Republicans can offer / or just plain "ignernt" as we say in Eastern NC???

Nary a one! Which of them apply to you?

[Timothy Bonney]

Gene,

I don't like Jim's grouchy poetry either. But one of the things we've always avoided here on this forum is foul language. I'm not a moderator here any longer. But you will run afoul of the moderation staff if you can't watch your own language.

[Sandy]

Gene, you just get to the point where you have to ignore Jim. He gets in a rut, he doesn't have his facts straight, and he generally repeats the same misinformation. He's a tea party dream, someone who will take whatever bait they throw out that appeals to his prejudices. He's off the subject, and has cited so much misinformation he has no credibility on this subject at all. When he gets into that green ink mode, responding statement for statement, you can pretty much conclude it's time to stop reading.

And before someone jumps to the conclusion that Jim's is a typical Southern Baptist response to this particular issue, remember that he is a self-identified moderate Baptist. The fact that most CBF churches are still on the fence with regard to denominational affiliation doesn't mean Southern Baptists have to take the blame for nutcase views from those who are dually affiliated.

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---Jim isn't the first "interesting character" I have dealt with. My first job after being a Trim Carpenter to get through college was a Nurse's Aide at Dorothea Dix on the Alcoholic Ward. Between listening to the wily tales of brick masons about their wild weekends and thending to drunks brought in after hours by Deputies, I've seen my share of nut cases.

Timothy---I once had a teenager ask me a great questions relative to Jesus being fully man and fully god. She said, "Imagine this: he has listened to the Disciples fuss and fight all day over who will sit where. Everybody in the world wants to get healing / feeding / a look at this strange person. So Jesus is tired and has slipped away for some peace and quiet. As his sandled feet shuffle back toward home in the dark he hits a big rock and stubbs his toe. So do you think he said 'Hosannah' or something else?"

After all I meant "Stuff" and typoed an extra * ---so where is your mind???

[Jim]

Gene, you just get to the point where you have to ignore Jim. He gets in a rut, he doesn't have his facts straight, and he generally repeats the same misinformation. He's a tea party dream, someone who will take whatever bait they throw out that appeals to his prejudices. He's off the subject, and has cited so much misinformation he has no credibility on this subject at all. When he gets into that green ink mode, responding statement for statement, you can pretty much conclude it's time to stop reading.

You've been very diligent in not refuting anything I've posted because I've posted the truth and the facts I've noted speak for themselves. I am not a tea-partier, as I've said before, but those folks are standing up for something that requires both common sense and sacrifice by everyone.

And before someone jumps to the conclusion that Jim's is a typical Southern Baptist response to this particular issue, remember that he is a self-identified moderate Baptist. The fact that most CBF churches are still on the fence with regard to denominational affiliation doesn't mean Southern Baptists have to take the blame for nutcase views from those who are dually affiliated.

I'm neither Southern Baptist at this point nor have ever been a moderate. I'm an arch-conservative, as I've mentioned before, the exact opposite of you. People resort to name-calling when they have nothing of substance to offer or when what they offer is easily refuted. You are a member of that name-calling club. Being called a nutcase doesn't bother me at all but if it's all you have to offer and it makes you feel good, then it makes me feel good, too.

[Jim]

Sandy---Jim isn't the first "interesting character" I have dealt with. My first job after being a Trim Carpenter to get through college was a Nurse's Aide at Dorothea Dix on the Alcoholic Ward. Between listening to the wily tales of brick masons about their wild weekends and thending to drunks brought in after hours by Deputies, I've seen my share of nut cases.

Timothy---I once had a teenager ask me a great questions relative to Jesus being fully man and fully god. She said, "Imagine this: he has listened to the Disciples fuss and fight all day over who will sit where. Everybody in the world wants to get healing / feeding / a look at this strange person. So Jesus is tired and has slipped away for some peace and quiet. As his sandled feet shuffle back toward home in the dark he hits a big rock and stubbs his toe. So do you think he said 'Hosannah' or something else?"

After all I meant "Stuff" and typoed an extra * ---so where is your mind???

I don't know where their minds are, either, but I'll keep looking. Or...did you just mean one and not the other? No matter...I'll keep looking. It's like the man said...a terrible thing to waste a mind.

[Gene Scarborough]

Hang in there, Jim---

No blog would ever be interesting if all parties were identical!

We all add our perspective---and probably are no more interested in cooperation or compromise as is Congress. Ever wonder why they are so hostile = just read the blogs on most things these days!

POGO: "We have met the enemy----and it is us!"

[Stephen Fox]

The Birther Franklin Graham discussion has implications for an aspect of the SBC Struggle too lightly explored: To wit, the mushiness of Billy Graham on the matter. The Steven Miller book I have repeatedly linked, and from it the Joe Crespino book can shed some light. Aaron Weaver's blog and wrapup at BaptistsToday.org and his topic here has added some nuances, but as is too often the case Scarborough and Jim have taken the discussion to muckland, the bog with little new insight and information.

Here is a link they may resurrect the discussion to a higher level and get the exchange between Sandy and Aaron Weaver back to some sensibility.

And keep an eye on SBC Heritage and History. I may add new quote from Steven Miller there hoping that some place on this board, some exchange may occur that will be worthy of its founder, Bruce Gourley.

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... quisition/

[Stephen Fox]

I am just now seeing BDW's response to Dave Miller's Sat post in this discussion; 2 pm on a Thursday five days after the fact.

BDW did a great job.

Would be grand time for BDW and the Baylor examiners to up the discussion a notch, and challenge Miller to an exploration of Steven Miller on Billy Graham and Joe Crespino In Search of Another Country.

[Jim]

The Birther Franklin Graham discussion has implications for an aspect of the SBC Struggle too lightly explored: To wit, the mushiness of Billy Graham on the matter.

What mush has Billy Graham delivered on the birther matter?

[Stephen Fox]

Birtherism has implications for the mushiness of Billy Graham on the Fundamentalist takeover of the SBC.
You'll have to read the Schaefer link in light of the Miller quotes I have posted in Baptist History and Heritage to have a clue.

Meanwhile BDW's response to David Miller has been one of the highlights of this Birtherism discussion thread here at Bl.com to date.

[Jim]

Birtherism has implications for the mushiness of Billy Graham on the Fundamentalist takeover of the SBC.
You'll have to read the Schaefer link in light of the Miller quotes I have posted in Baptist History and Heritage to have a clue.

Naw…I don’t have time for Schaeffer or Miller. You can tell me just as well as they can, probably better because you’ve been looking at the dark side of Graham and making that a personal pilgrimage for years. You’re an expert on Graham perfidy, father or son. Man up and spill your guts this time. It will be a perfect example of scholarship at the highest level, and we’ll all profit…maybe even burn both of them in effigy when all is said and done.

[Stephen Fox]

I just found Steven Miller's book very worthwhile and if you want to read the couple paragraphs about Billy's legacy in History and Heritage and then his concluding chapter you will find that the case; any fair minded person would.
I am just hoping from this latest Birther round Franklin will learn some from the mistakes of his father. No Crusade here; just calling for insight into a nuanced chapter, aspect of the SBC's troubles of the last quarter of 20th Century.
Hoping President Carter, Jimmy Allen, Mercer President Underwood, James Dunn, even Nathan Hatch of Wake Forest will engage the likes of Steven Miller and Joe Crespino in the project.

I think it a worthy endeavour.

[Sandy]

Action in Libya is not unilateral US military action, it is being conducted by NATO. It was conservative Republicans in Congress who first criticized the President, after the rebel action had already started, for not doing enough and not doing it fast enough. You can plaster your hypocritical critique of the US action in Libya in any way you choose to, Jim, but it doesn't make it any less biased, more objective, or factual. Bush led the US to take unilateral action in Iraq, lied through his teeth to Congress to convince them to hold his coattails and back him up, invented intelligence to claim that the Iraqis had "nucular" weapons, and then scrambled to try to find some explanation, like bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqis when no weapons of mass destruction or "nucular" capability was found anywhere near Iraq. This little air support action in Libya is milquetoast compared to the lies, deception, monstrous spending and ineptitude displayed by Obama's predecessor in handling Iraq.

And it doesn't have anything to do with Birthers and the SBC.

[Gene Scarborough]

"I done gotcha" awards:

(1) Jim for his request of Stephen Fox for a clear Fox analysis rather than another link!

(2) Sandy on the Conservative Republicans criticizing President Obama for doing what they wanted done!

Congratulations to you both. Wish I knew how to give a "Golden Monkey Award" as does Flick give the spur---my Golden Monkey reflects a truth: "The higher the monkey climbs the tree, the more you see his tail."

[Jim]

Action in Libya is not unilateral US military action, it is being conducted by NATO. It was conservative Republicans in Congress who first criticized the President, after the rebel action had already started, for not doing enough and not doing it fast enough. You can plaster your hypocritical critique of the US action in Libya in any way you choose to, Jim, but it doesn't make it any less biased, more objective, or factual. Bush led the US to take unilateral action in Iraq, lied through his teeth to Congress to convince them to hold his coattails and back him up, invented intelligence to claim that the Iraqis had "nucular" weapons, and then scrambled to try to find some explanation, like bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqis when no weapons of mass destruction or "nucular" capability was found anywhere near Iraq. This little air support action in Libya is milquetoast compared to the lies, deception, monstrous spending and ineptitude displayed by Obama's predecessor in handling Iraq.

And it doesn't have anything to do with Birthers and the SBC.

As Paul would have it (Acts 9:5), it’s hard to kick against the pricks. Don’t mess with the truth. The action was Obama’s for ten days before NATO reluctantly took over his barbarism. He didn’t consult Congress but sent the fearless Hillary (of sniper-dodging fame) to the UN for some sort of silly approval. I think it got barely enough votes in the SC, with the biggies not bothering. Brazil, Russia, India, China, and Germany all abstained in the U.N. vote on military action in Libya. Obama has forced honorable men to kill women and children, since bombs and missiles don’t know one Libyan from another. Disgusting! By the fourth day, the Brit officer indicated that the mission (establishing no-fly zone) had been accomplished, but that didn’t matter to the dear leader. More enlightenment: No End-Zone Spike…No Pix!

[Jim]

I done gotcha awards:

(1) Jim for his request of Stephen Fox for a clear Fox analysis rather than another link!

(2) Sandy on the Conservative Republicans criticizing President Obama for doing what they wanted done!

Congratulations to you both. Wish I knew how to give a "Golden Monkey Award" as does Flick give the spur---my Golden Monkey reflects a truth: "The higher the monkey climbs the tree, the more you see his tail."

The Senate biggies in the Libya-war-urging were democrats Kerry and Lieberman and repubs McCain and Graham, so there’s plenty of blame to go around. If Obama’s little war had been brought to the Congress, it would never have happened. Starting a third war while borrowing 43 cents on the dollar just to survive at home would have made affirmative action stupid even if there had been a reason for it, which there was not. Obama’s first ten days of butchering Libya came in at about $550 million. Both McCain and Graham have been proven exponentially wrong on the enhanced-interrogation methods, too, and I think both of the other two join them in their folly about that matter.

Would I be correct in assuming that you live all the time in the highest part of a tree?

[Gene Scarborough]

Jim---

If we were sharing a luscious apple, you would hand me back the core!!! I was trying to sincerely congratulate you on some good thinking.

I can't avoid giving you the "Golden Monkey Award" for your persistent criticism of the President over Libya. As Commander In Chief he can order actions without approval of Congress. He has NOT declared war on Libya, but has ordered the spending of Millions we don't have to put expensive missles and air power against them!

I won't mention a thing about Bush's exhorbitant expenditure of multi-billions in Iraq based on false information given to Congress and knowlingly questionable! Compared to the current Administration, I think it's about 100-1. Your partisan monkey has been up the tree for a long long time!!!!

I refuse to join him----SORRY!!!

[Jim]

Jim---

If we were sharing a luscious apple, you would hand me back the core!!! I was trying to sincerely congratulate you on some good thinking.

Apologies all around! I've been called so many names in this forum that I can't even comprehend a congratulations. Thanks! You're right about the apple, though.

I can't avoid giving you the "Golden Monkey Award" for your persistent criticism of the President over Libya. As Commander In Chief he can order actions without approval of Congress. He has NOT declared war on Libya, but has ordered the spending of Millions we don't have to put expensive missles and air power against them!

If bombing a country, especially with no provocation by that country, is not war, what is it? Libya is no different from Syria or Yemen in the current battles between governments and peoples, so may we expect Obama to just start bombing them, too? I suspect al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood will take over Libya if Obama figures a way to waste Qaddafi, so what's the profit for us...another al Qaeda training camp much closer to this country...or a modern version of the Barbary Pirates?

I won't mention a thing about Bush's exhorbitant expenditure of multi-billions in Iraq based on false information given to Congress and knowlingly questionable! Compared to the current Administration, I think it's about 100-1. Your partisan monkey has been up the tree for a long long time!!!!

We're all partisan, no one more so than you and me.

I refuse to join him----SORRY!!!

Who?

[Gene Scarborough]

If bombing a country, especially with no provocation by that country, is not war, what is it? Libya is no different from Syria or Yemen in the current battles between governments and peoples, so may we expect Obama to just start bombing them, too? I suspect al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood will take over Libya if Obama figures a way to waste Qaddafi, so what's the profit for us...another al Qaeda training camp much closer to this country...or a modern version of the Barbary Pirates?

Jim---I, again, congratulate you on your insight and totally agree with you!

We are stupid to think we can put our weapons of mass destruction on any country without some kind of retribution!

No matter what it is / no matter what the presumed accuracy / innocent people get killed and they ALL have relatives who want revenge just like we did to ben Laden.

The only way I know is that which Jesus advocated: "Turn the other cheek / go the extra mile when compelled to carry the Roman soldier's cloak and arms."

Ghandi proved it as did MLK---if you can take the punishment, you put coals of fire on the forehead of your enemy!