New NAMB President Interviews with Al Mohler

[Tom Parker]

Sandy:

You said to me:"The SBC hasn't been activist with regard to increasing women in the pulpit, so your question is irrelevant to the discussion. "

Are you the relevance decider?

You may not think so, but I do believe my question was relevant.

[Tim Dahl]

I've wondered for quite a while why we don't have many more female church planters. I mentioned as much as a comment on a blog where the writer (female minister) was grieving over the lack of opportunity (in general).

I was torn a new one.

Needless to say, I didn't continue in the conversation.

But, here are my points as to why I think it might be good for female pastors to become planters:

1) While there may be more churches than ministers out there, it seems that there are fewer churches able to pay a living wage (meaning something livable in a two income household) than ministers trying for those positions. If a church can afford to pay around $36K plus benefits, then they will receive a couple of hundred resumes (this is happening to some of the churches I know who are looking for pastors). What I'm saying is that it is a competitive market, to some extent.

2) The planter is starting with a clean slate when it comes to (potential) members having a bias against women in the pastorate. If you're planting the church, people who aren't comfortable with female pastors probably won't show up. Plus, there are bookoos of folks out there without a whole lot of indoctrination either way, just waiting to see God's love through your potential church plant!

3) The embedded church DNA will be female friendly, and has the potential of planting similar churches.

In your experience, have you seen a sizable (in your opinion) amount of ladies going into church planting?

Also, one thing concerning all these women attending CBF friendly seminaries, and concerning the overall student population in general. I was visiting Truett (Baylor Woot!) about 4 years ago now, and I was speaking with Dean Powell. I asked about the number of students, and how many were going into the pastorate. At that time he mentioned that he was seeing less students have aspirations toward the pastorate, and more towards para-church organizations, youth ministry, missions, etc.

I'm just saying, maybe all those female students aren't looking to go into the pastorate. Maybe, the traditional pastor is a dying breed.

Tim

[Jim]

I went with CBF largely over the woman-ordination matter; however, it needs to be remembered that, if statistics can be trusted, more than half of SBCers are women who apparently don’t have a problem with the convention’s apparatus concerning the status of women vis-à-vis ordination. One thing that may be missed in all of this is the politically incorrect notion that people may simply have ideas of which gender should do certain things. For instance, there are more women than men in the country but nothing like 50% of them enlist in the military or become Navy Seals or anything in the Marines. In 2008, 13.3% of the military was comprised of women, supposedly none of them in combat roles. That likely hasn’t changed much. Women don’t play in the NFL or NBA and men, at least in college, don’t play on the girls’ softball/volley-ball teams. Women don’t play in the men’s fast-pitch softball leagues, but in swimming and diving and gymnastics they have a home.

In scripture, God is always referenced as male. Jesus obviously was male. Perhaps the major biblical appellation concerning Christ is “shepherd,” the connotation being that he was male. Okay, Rachel was a shepherdess but that’s a sort of special case. Shepherds were not just men but physically strong, tough men who worked at their outdoor jobs 24/7, no matter the elements. All of Christ’s disciples in his closest retinue were men, although there were some women, too. There were some women preachers, notably Philip’s daughters, but women as preachers are virtually unlisted in the NT. In other words, the pastoral calling has been seen culturally through all of this dispensation as male, meaning that a sea-change, which has begun in some areas, will be necessary before any large-scale appearances of women in ministry as senior pastors, especially in Baptist circles, about half of which are in the SBC. This isn’t the women’s fault…just the way it is.

[Gene Scarborough]

All concepts of gender-appropriate behaviour are more a by-product of society than an act of God.

When you have Judeo-Christian teachings as the basis of the Bible, it is no wonder that women have a lower place in the social order. Some years ago women became more interested in archaeology and guess what---we are now finding that cultures like Egypt gave a far higher place to women than previously thought.

Women could inherit property and were equally important in female-led religious practices. A part of our trouble today is that our gender-bias has been so great that it unconscously has influenced even archaeological research for the better part of modern times!

Our simple history of women's sufferage is a greater travesty of discrimination than black discrimination! Now a black female trumps a white female once again as a target of "keeping 'em down."

[Sandy]

Among Baptists, you have congregations which are independent and autonomous. So the process of calling a pastor is done by the congregation alone, at least in theory, and and consultation with denominational leaders or resources is initiated by the church itself. On the occasions that I have observed this process up close, the first time being at age 16 when my Dad was a member of a five-person "pulpit committee" at my home church, the committee members spend a lot of time in prayer, seeking a word from God and his sense of direction. I'm sure there are times when there is plenty of outside influence, or at least, attempts at such. I've seen that happen, too, though I would say that, in the vast majority of churches, the decision they reach is the result of their prayers and God's direction. You can argue with that, but that's been my experience. There are few, if any, women involved because the congregation doesn't feel led to call them. Yeah, that sounds subjective. But that's not just a common experience for Southern Baptists. Most denominations and churches that fall under the evangelical, congregational banner, do not call women as pastors of churches.

On the other side of that, and to allude a bit to what Jim has said above, half of the membership of these churches are women, and I've not seen a pulpit committee that didn't have at least one or two women, if not a majority of women in some cases, on it. And in terms of women serving in the ministry of the church, using their spiritual gifts and fulfilling a spiritual calling, Southern Baptists probably have as many, per capita, as some of the mainline denominations with female clergy. But it goes back to a concept that I've been arguing in another thread, and that is that in a Baptist church, there is no separation of clergy and laity. There are church offices, elder-pastor-bishop (a term used interchangeably for the same position) and deacon, and the pastor is an elder. But there isn't a heirarchy or a line of authority. So attempts to be critical of the SBC as a denomination on that particular basis, are misguided and are based on faulty assumptions. Women are as free to serve as men, and in fact, the churches would not function without them.

[Tom Parker]

Sandy:

You said:"Women are as free to serve as men, and in fact, the churches would not function without them."

You mean the SBC has decided to let women serve as deacons and as pastors. When did this happen?

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

I think women as church planters is a marvelous idea. They tend to be more compassionate and willing to minister in even the small ways to people looking for compassion and the personal touch.

I am amazed at how many women don't really want a lady minister----but that is more due to tradition than experience. The smaller churches I know (Baptist / Methodist) who have female ministers usually grow to like it to the point they will look for a woman in the future!

In black churches there are many female ministers. That may have to do with the matriarchical nature of black cuture.

If we look to Jesus' example he was open to all who would follow him. In a culture and time where women were just a man's property and not allowed into the inner sanctum at the Temple, Jesus was more than a rebel when it comes to the honor and respect he gave his famale followers! Many women are punching their husbands in the side to get them to be more active in church. Out of tradition they pretend to be non-leaders, but it's just not so in church reality!

[Tom Parker]

Sandy:

You said:"I know it irks moderate Baptists to death that SBC churches are full of women who happily and gladly serve in their God called roles in the church and aren't clamoring for a clergy status that isn't even Biblical."

I have no irks, it is truly sadness that those like yourself would use the Bible to deny women through your interpretation to use their God given talents.

[Neil Heath]

It is indeed true that women can and do serve in churches in many roles besides pastor and deacon. The truth is that the real power structure is not always the visible elected one. If women quit doing what they are now doing in most churches, those churches would close. There's no way a church could exist on the work done by the staff and deacons alone. I've been a deacon more than once, and I know who's doing the real work of ministry and who keeps the whole structure moving. It's the members, the majority of which are women. If the women leave, there goes some of our basic institutional activities, like SS and pot luck dinners, not to mention the missions support and ministry to families in crisis.

I'm in a church that has women deacons and two women on staff who regularly lead in worship alongside the pastor. They do a terrific job in everything they do. And the women deacons have definitely improved the work of that body as well.

We probably don't give them the leadership roles enough for fear they would show up the men. And they probably would.

NH

[Gene Scarborough]

Let's just hope official position for women does not degenerate into the fussing and fighting men have done through the years!

Is it possible, "keeping it unofficial" is a far better way of following God????

[Sandy]

[T. D. Webb]

[Gene Scarborough]

T.D.---

With all due respect, can you not see the cultural bias of the times reflected in what you underlined?

Do you keep the Jewish dietary laws / holidays / etc. which would then make what you did above make sense???

It just does not wash in our day. Jewish male leadership traditions tried to preclude women from getting into the inner circle, but he welcomed everyone who would come and do as God led them---even children!!!

[Tom Parker]

T. D. Webb:

I think you are trying to say that I do not believe the Bible? I will not play that old game that sadly the folks of the CR were so successful with.

[T. D. Webb]

[T. D. Webb]

[Tom Parker]

T. D. Webb:

I doubt you are going to get Gene and I to play your game. You are right and we are wrong. We just don't believe the Bible and the Scriptures are not sufficient for us.

[Gene Scarborough]

Gentlemen---

What I am referring to is called "sitz im leben" by Bible scholars. It is German for "situation of living." What I described is the living situation of the early NT Church days. Many of them thought one had to be Jew first and then Christian. That meant to observe Jewish laws including those about eating and celebrations.

We don't do that today so why should we have women as possessions with no rights---as did the Jewish men of Jesus' day????

I'm not debunking in any way the importance of scripture as a "measuring rod" for us. Just do it with consideration of the circumstances under which it was first put into writing.

[T. D. Webb]

[Ed Pettibone]

[T. D. Webb]

[T. D. Webb]

[TOMPARKER]

T. D. Webb:

You said to me:"Tom, was it a "game" when you claimed, "I have no irks, it is truly sadness that those like yourself would use the Bible to deny women through your interpretation to use their God given talents."? Now, we are left with the alternative that either you have no "interpretation" for the said passages, or your "interpretation" impeaches your view of the issue, or that you reject (deny) the passage's directives. In any case, your unwillingness to share any personal "interpretation" puts you in no position to criticize the "interpretations" of those who accept the explicit declarations of the passage. How do you spell, C-O-P O-U-T, Tom?"

You may call it a copout--thanks for the large letters--my eyesight is not what it used to be.

But you are not going to change my position and I'm surely not going to change your POSITION!, therefore, I'm not going to play the CR game.

I hope that is SUFFICIENT FOR YOU!!

[David Flick]

.
.On the issue of women in ministry, Tom Parker, GeneS, and Ed Pettibone are right. T. D. Webb is wrong.

And I'm right about what I just wrote...