SBC...name change...

[Chris]

[Mark]

[Stephen Fox]

[Sandy]

[Sandy]

I'm guessing, Timothy, that participation in ABC-USA by local churches is still voluntary, and that the church decides on its own to what extent it financially participates in the denomination. In that regard, it would be similar to the SBC. The denomination doesn't determine at what level the church will provide support.

But back to the question of what independent churches do with the money in the offering plate. They do with it what most denominational churches do, they pay their staff, cover the expenses of operating the church, and they determine which mission endeavors they will support as a congregation.

It seems a bit closed minded and restrictive for self-proclaimed Baptist moderates to declare that there are churches out there across doctrinal lines that they are not open to attending. Sounds like a lot of the criticism that has been levelled at conservatives here for a while.

[Dave Roberts]

[Chris]

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

As far as the name to choose goes, of the ones listed on that nametag I think the obvious frontrunner is "Scriptural Baptist Convention", because it's patently obvious that whether you read the traditional King James Bible or the canonical, inspired Holman Christian one, every time the Scriptures refer to a Baptist Convention, it's the SBC the L is referring to. I'm serious, point to one place in the Bible where "Baptist Convention" could conceivably mean ABC or CBF!!

[Sandy]

[Chris]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Chris, thank you for resurrecting this thread. At first I wondered how I had missed it. I had to ask Trudy where we where Jan 24th to 29 , 2010. If I had stoed reading and thought about it I probably would have realized that was the week after our move back to the Capital Area ant I had not yet set up my computer. It is an interesting thread. Like Flick I well recall all the hype the idea received back in the 70's. The best line of all may come from Haruo on the first page when he said "As long as the name change involves dropping "Baptist" from it, I'm in favor. Would save the rest of us a lot of trouble overcoming the baggage of the name. " On the other hand they do that in a lot of their "Home (NAMB) Mission Church Planting" some times claiming to be independent. But when I see a relatively new church up here with 40 or fifty vehicles in the parking lot and more than four have plates from southern states I am pretty sure what they are, especially if the plates are North Carolina or Kentucky.

And if they change the convention name what become of the name "The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary"? There is already a Louisville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and a "Baptist Seminary of Kentucky", recently moved from Lexington to Georgetown, Ky.

[linda]

I've attended SBC churches since I was a preschooler, and first joined one in 1968.

Now I can find plenty with that name over the door around the country, but none teaching soul freedom so what's the point?

I cannot ever remember one of them back in the 50's, 60's, or 70's just sitting around waiting for folks to come based on the name over the door. You guarded your witness and the good name of your church, shared the gospel and invited your friends to your church.

And if they came--the unbelievers--they knew to expect to hear stuff that wasn't designed to lure them into a cushy relationship with other people or Jesus Christ.

They knew they would hear strong preaching on heaven, hell, sin, repentance, and salvation.

If they didn't want to hear it, they could stay home. They knew it might be educational for the saints but it sure as shooting was gonna be evangelistic.

Not huge crowds coming through the door, but those that came did so for a reason. If they stuck around it would be because they got saved and were ready to pick up their own cross and follow Jesus.

But then, the pastor was likely bivo and not worried about where his next car payment was coming from.

Baptist preachers were not concerned with being popular, but with being right.

Now we seem to be more concerned with fitting in with the culture than we are with impacting it. We seem to be more concerned with making political clones and tithers than with seeing folks saved.

Not much to lose if we give up the name. Might keep it cleaner if we do.

[Ed Pettibone]

[linda]

Good point, Ed. My experience was totally small rural churches.

Now I still have only small rural churches to attend, but the expectation is for them to provide the pastors with an upper middle class lifestyle, or else close them and drive long distances to a larger church.

Out here in the west, the long distance drives usually mean folks just stop attending.

[Tim Bonney]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[linda]

Small and rural where I have lived when we followed the oil field would be from 4 to 8 families, maybe. Some families with one or two folks, some larger, but tithers. Of course, ten people in one family with one income is still just 10% of one income. Attendance from maybe 15-30.

When it comes to distances, closest next Baptist church during those years was 17 miles from one village we lived in. Farther in others.

If those little churches close, sometimes the round trip on Sunday to the next nearest could be as much as 75-100 miles.

Time was those churches wouldn't even think of trying to "hire a pastor." What we did was either acknowledge that God had called Bro. So and So to preach, assuming that had happened, or pay someone called to preach to come "by the service."

In the village I grew up during the 1950's the Methodist preacher served 5 churches most years, sometimes just 3. Circuit riding is nothing new there at all.

Now, at least in some states, the push is away from those men who were called to preach but it was not a career, and there has been some pretty strong movement towards minimum contribution or you are out of the state convention. I'll pm anyone wanting me to name one, but here as I consider some in that state's leadership my friends, and am not in that state anymore anyway. There is also a strong push toward ONLY seminary trained pastors.

Now, I certainly support seminary training and do NOT want to put it down. But realistically when you have only a few families, none of them making much above minimum wage and prospective pastors have large student loans to repay if they have been to seminary, there are some places that are just not going to be able to afford them.

What has all that to do with the name change topic? Just this: we used to be a people out to change the world. Now we take surveys to see how the world wants us to change next.

I firmly believe that is because we in the pew abdicated the convention and started expecting the "hired help" to do our job.

That has so hamstrung the average Baptist preacher he cannot begin to preach what God lays on his heart half the time.

And in that case, we might as well take down the Baptist sign, as it is meaningless .

[Chris]

Today's local newspaper printed my phone call in which I advised that the church referred to above is really a SBC church and not non-denominational. They claim they printed a clarification, but I never saw it.

Before that happened, I was about to call the church and ask which version of the BF&M they subscribe to. If the person answered the question, he would be admitting a Baptist affiliation.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

Ed you are probably right about me guessing a bit high on what constitutes small. I do remember being told in a seminar that 200 is the threshold from a Pastor led church where a lot of the ministry can be done by an energetic pastor to a program church where it is very necessary for the pastor to be a good equipper. I'd argue that even with a church of 200 or less if the pastor doesn't learn to equip and delegate she/he will burn out in the long term.

My current church has three services in which we run about 100 in Contemporary, and 150+ and 150+ in two traditional services. (That's my best estimate). We run between 400 and 450 most Sundays. So are we we have some attributes of a larger church and a smaller church because our worship services are more intimate than if we had 450 in one service.