Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

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Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:14 pm

Heresy is Not Heroic — Is Crawford Howell Toy a Baptist Hero?

Something deeply disturbing recently appeared at EthicsDaily.com, the Web site for the Baptist Center for Ethics. Tony Cartledge, Associate Professor of Old Testament at Campbell University Divinity School and former editor of the Biblical Recorder, recently contributed an article that makes the astounding claim that both Lottie Moon and Crawford H. Toy should be considered “Baptist heroes.”

The article is breathtaking in its argument — that a man who abandoned the Christian faith was “no less devoted to Christ” than Southern Baptists’ most famous missionary.


In other words, Toy became what Christians throughout all the centuries of church history and in all the major traditions of the Christian Church would rightly identify as a heretic. He abandoned faith in the deity of Christ and abandoned the Christian faith. Yet, moderates in the SBC controversy often celebrated Crawford Toy as a hero and as a theological martyr for academic scholarship. Tony Cartledge continues this tradition by expressing his admiration for Crawford Toy, going so far as to claim that he “was no less devoted to Christ” than Lottie Moon. “There’s more than one way to be a hero,” Cartledge concluded.


While I enjoy some of Tony Cartledge's blog articles, he missed the mark badly on this one. If he was knowledgable about Toy and really believes what he wrote, the only explanation I can find for his calling Toy a hero is that it is useful to do so as a slap against the Conservative Resurgence and Paige Patterson. That is, you are a hero to the mod/libs if you buck the conservative powers-that-be even if you deny the faith. A Harvard Unitarians is worth more than an orthodox Baptist. Brilliant scholar? Sure. Hero? No.

As I said in Stephen's topic below on the same subject, I don't see how to rehabilitate Toy's reputation in light of the fact that he turned first Unitarian and then nothing. Cartledge likes to dig around and do archaeology pieces. Maybe he has dug up something new on Toy and Lottie Moon that makes him a hero.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Mark » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:47 pm

Was Tony Cartledge speaking of Crawford Toy as a Baptist hero during the final "Unitarian" chapter of his life, or at some earlier point along the continuum of his own personal or theological journey? Mohler may be reading more into what Tony said than that which was intended. (Imagine that. :wink: )

Meanwhile, as we're looking for heresy... Wonder if Al Mohler still believes Jesus didn't die for the sins of all people, just some of them? I'm probably more troubled by that viewpoint than whatever Crawford Toy believed after he was no longer a Baptist. :o
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:20 pm

Mark wrote:Was Tony Cartledge speaking of Crawford Toy as a Baptist hero during the final "Unitarian" chapter of his life, or at some earlier point along the continuum of his own personal or theological journey? Mohler may be reading more into what Tony said than that which was intended. (Imagine that. :wink: )

Meanwhile, as we're looking for heresy... Wonder if Al Mohler still believes Jesus didn't die for the sins of all people, just some of them? I'm probably more troubled by that viewpoint than whatever Crawford Toy believed after he was no longer a Baptist. :o


The point of Cartledge's article was to present both Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy as "Two Baptist heroes." I suppose we could have a lot of "heroes" who were Baptist heroes before they left to embrace Unitarianism or some other heresy.

As you know, Mohler's theology has been held by some SBCers from the first. I don't see that you have much of a point there. But I know you are busy praying for our common neighbor to the north who is in search mode again for a football coach and might not have time to deal with all this extensively.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Mark » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:49 pm

Wm wrote:I suppose we could have a lot of "heroes" who were Baptist heroes before they left to embrace [some type of heresy such as] Unitarianism or....

... Fundamentalism, or... :angel:


Wm wrote:As you know, Mohler's theology has been held by some SBCers from the first. I don't see that you have much of a point there...

Which, of course, has no bearing on whether or not something is heresy... Right? :wink:


Wm wrote:But I know you are busy praying for our common neighbor to the north who is in search mode again for a football coach and might not have time to deal with all this extensively...

Now, William... You know that I don't view everyone from Tennessee (or Kentucky) as being common. Not even everybody from Georgia is common... :D

Meanwhile, I'd say Coach Kiffin probably needs to keep on heading westward - quickly - and stay there.
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I submitted a reply to Mohler and Thornton

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:50 pm

http://www.tonycartledge.com/2010/01/lo ... rooms.html

with reference to the post here at Cartledge's original blog linked above.

Some of you may want to pick it up here and there; both places.

I call on WMU itself to offer a word about this strong disagreement about the legacy of Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy.
At some point the offering itself no longer has any integrity; the Brand Name is a Lie.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:42 pm

Been doing a bit of reading for a few minutes in some academic journals (BHH, Harvard Theological Review) on Toy and his alleged Unitarianism:

From Mohler:

During his time at Harvard, Toy eventually became a Unitarian — a faith that denies the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity.


Now, there's no denying that Toy did, as Mohler writes, sip some from the wells of theological liberalism. He was influenced by liberalism and was clearly part of the liberal Protestant tradition similar to other Baptists whom we moderates tend to still dub as heroes such as Harry Emerson Fosdick.

However, there is no proof that Toy "became a Unitarian" in any real sense; meaning I've yet to see proof that Toy changed his views while at Harvard and came to deny the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity as Mohler implies.

Here is what we do know from one of Toy's students in an article published in the Harvard Theological Review in 1920:
Dr. Toy was the first scholar not a Unitarian to become professor in the Harvard Divinity School.

He remained a member of the Baptist Church for nearly eight years after coming to Cambridge. Then he withdrew and joined the Unitarian Church. But he was never an ecclesiastical partisan in the old relation or the new. Nor was he an iconoclast. For this his temper was too judicial, and he was able to see a subject in too many of its bearings.


So, Toy moved to Cambridge and did not immediately join a Unitarian church. It was only 7 years later that he joined up with the Unitarians - note that all of his colleagues were Unitarians.

According to Glenn Hinson, Toy joined the Unitarian Church after having strained relations with the Northern Baptists in New England.

So, the Southern Baptists booted Toy. Northern Baptists eventually made it clear that Toy was not welcome. What's a Baptist to do?

Did Toy hold liberal beliefs concerning the inspiration of the Bible. Sure.

Does that make him a heretic in the mind of Mohler and other fundamentalists? Absolutely.

Did Toy come to deny the Trinity and the Deity of Christ? If he did, where's the proof? Did he deny these doctrines in his writings? Where? I've seen no quotes, no citations to support what Mohler has implied in anything I've read.

Look at what Toy's friends said about him. Whitsitt didn't condemn him at any point as a heretic or Deity-denier, etc.

I do think though that Tony was referring to Toy The Southern Baptist. He might need to clarify that point.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby William Thornton » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:36 pm

I did some reading also and don't see any in depth explanation of his theology in later years; however, it is still some jump to join a Unitarian church. I think most baptists, even mod/libs would look askance at that. So...Toy was a Baptist hero while he was a Baptist. Sorry, but I don't put him and don't think many Baptists would put him in the same category as Lottie Moon. But, why go back a century or more? There are a number of former SBC mod/libs who were so staunchly Baptistic that they converted to Episcopalianism, Methodism, ABCism and even Roman Catholic.

Slice this any way you want. The Moon/Toy anecdote was aptly used, and accurately used, by Patterson and others.
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Seems like the nest step is the WMU

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:59 pm

Something a little unseemly about where this is going; but if the argument is what matters; let's have Paige and Mohler andTim George and his Been ABUSED by Paige and current SBC Leadership.

If this is about Lottie and her legacy; then let's seek WMU leadership on the matter and see what they think.

I am aware of an IMB couple whose child is married to a woman pursuing doctorate at Harvard on Mideast.

So What does Paige and Al do now? Have an Inquisition of this IMBcouple cause they didn't raise their children in admonition of SBC Inerrancy and these free thinking children have come to convictions using their god given intellect that are outside the parameters of thought allowed by Mohler and Paige.

Where does this Horse manure, this Bull manure of Inqusitional crock and naming this heretic and that one based on speculation stop?

Take it to WMU; for God's sake and let's get this thing settled.

The Integrity of the Offering is at Stake. If Paige is wrong,Why Fund a Lie. Let's see what the WMU declares in this matter.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:18 pm

I don't put him with Lottie Moon either. Nor would I say that Toy is a personal hero. Post-Roger Williams, I reserve that label for folks who stayed within the Baptist fold. Toy utlimately left that tradition.

I was talking to my dad earlier, who by the nature of his own research/publications is specialized in this era (especially Whitsitt and later Mullins). He noted that there is still disagreement among historians regarding the Moon/Toy anecdote. From what I hear him say, he's of the opinion that Toy's theology was but ONE factor not the SOLE factor by any means for the broken engagement. I'd say that's probably the most plausible scenario as history tends to be more grey than black and white.

Bruce Prescott has a response here.

Here's Prescott:
For the record, I would not hesitate to call Toy a Baptist hero. Baptists began as defenders of "soul liberty" and "liberty of conscience." Considering the way, in Toy's experience, Baptists had abandoned that belief, it is not hard to comprehend what made Unitarianism appealing to him. Unitarians are unashamed and unflinching in their defense of "liberty of conscience."


I like Prescott understand the importance of soul freedom; did my thesis partially on soul freedom, finishing a book partially on soul freedom. However, I don't see the appeal in Unitarianism. With freedom comes responsibility and the Unitarian tradition does not seen, from what I've observed and encountered, to have respect for the responsibility side of the soul freedom coin. The Anything Goes mentality is not appealing to me.

I have no problem with someone dubbing Toy a Baptist hero. I think one should clarify when exactly Toy was a "Baptist" hero as he was not always a Baptist.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby William Thornton » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:31 am

Moderates and Baptist liberals are fairly well forced to justify and even commend Toy's conversion to Unitarianism because so many of their number have made similar if not so dramatic jumps; therefore, I 'm not at all surprised to find Cartledge, Prescott et al offering justifications, giving a particular slant to what constitutes a Baptist hero.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Mark » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:22 am

William Thornton wrote:Moderates and Baptist liberals are fairly well forced to justify and even commend Toy's conversion to Unitarianism because so many of their number have made similar if not so dramatic jumps; therefore, I 'm not at all surprised to find Cartledge, Prescott et al offering justifications, giving a particular slant to what constitutes a Baptist hero.

Please, please, however... Would you at least acknowledge that Mohler's most sweeping charge (that Cartledge's defense of Crawford Toy speaks to the overall lack of biblical belief by Baptist "moderates") is a bit of a stretch?

If you're willing to concede that much, we'll be happy to renew your "closet moderate" status for 2010. :)
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:31 am

Mohler always seems to paint with such a broad brush. If a man became a Unitarian late in life, then let's dismiss the whole of his life and work. I would in no way agree with his Unitarian jump, but there was more to the man than just his last few years.
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Calling on Shurden, Gourley and WMU

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:39 am

I think it is time to bring this matter to the attention of WMU administrative staff.

Patterson and Mohler easily powerful forces at Center of SBC Power and Influence.

The Integrity of the Offering is in Question here.

Do folks across Baptist life, do they really want to honor a Brand name, Lottie Moon, that Patterson and Mohler have redefined as nullifying the core Baptist notion of a free conscience.

I think that is the larger issue here.

At what point does the WMU stop raising money to support Mohler and Patterson's nonsense.

How long can they be bystanders without using their God Given intellect to speak truth to Power; Stand Against Mohler and Patterson and this revisionist Horse manure
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby William Thornton » Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:45 am

Mark, I'm pretty close to Mohler on this (although he didn't check with me before he wrote). Both Fox and I could see this coming.

Dave, I'm afraid that a late life conversion to Unitarianism says things about the man's previous life that I hate to see said.
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Tony Cartledge replies to Mohler

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:01 pm

In any case, let me clarify that my comments were not intended as a commentary on or approval of Toy's later beliefs (or lack of them). I was really speaking from the perspective of Toy's departure from Southern, and to express appreciation for his integrity. Who knows, if he had felt welcome to stay at Southern -- or had made it to the mission field as he had desired -- instead of spending the rest of his career at Harvard, his beliefs may have gone in a different direction.


From Comment on Cartledge Blog this morning.

Tony makes a great point, it comes down to matter of integrity; Cartledge appreciation for Toy's integrity; a similar point to Weaver and his Dad's above.

Here is a short list of folks who I am convinced have more integrity, and think Crawford Toy has more Integrity than Mohler and Paige Patterson
I have not talked to any of them this morning; list is my instinctual conviction based on my knowledge of their reputation in the aggregate

The STaff of The WMU in Bham Alabama
Kat Allen
Carolyn Weatherford
Tom Corts
Gary Fenton
Randall Lolley
Barbara Bush and Laura, her daw in law
Judge Frank Johnson
Holly Hollman and her Mother ( met Holly's Mother Jan 08 in Atlanta)
Abraham Lincoln
John Adams the President
Mark Noll
Dwight Eisenhower and his Granddaughter Susan
Jackie Robinson
Sarah Shelton
Lottie Moon herself
Marilynne Robinson; quintessential expert on John Calvin and his Legacy
Ron Rash
George Truett
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Heisman winner Mark Ingram
Barry Goldwater
Barry Wynn, former chair of the SC GOP
John Baugh
Anne Graham Lotz and the Baptist World Alliance
Dorothy Day
Woody Guthrie
Luis Tiant
Bob Dylan
Jesus Christ and the Twelve Apostles
The Apostle Paul
Stewart Newman
L.D. Johnson
Children of several IMB missionaries whose witness has come to me
Fleming Rutledge
Gus Niebuhr
My Momma
My Daddy

Almost every body I can think of who isnot a member of the John Birch Society or Texas Regulars and or has the good sense to understand what they are about and their ideological implications

Every Saint in the Geneaology of Dissent

Maybe I can think of more later
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby William Thornton » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:17 pm

The thought is that if Toy were treated differently by SBTS he might not have gone Unitarian? Here is a man whose integrity is held up as highly exemplary and now it is pondered that the core of his integrity - freedom of conscience, the things he believes - might have been compromised by his adversaries at SBTS? And this might have contributed to his decision to leave what he once considered to be a church of sound Biblical doctrine for one whose doctrines are far from it?

I don't believe that this speculation does much for his reputation at all.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:42 pm

Thornton, My Brother in Christ Jesus

I could imagine circumstances where if I lived not far from Billy Sunday Birt, with my fascination for his story, I might have enough in common with him as Clay and his Baptism and Profession of Faith, that I might join the Statham Baptist Church with you as Pastor.

You and I both know we differ on several matters, some of them quite core. But for the most part I take ayll to be sober people and I might like the fellowship ofsober folks sometime during the week, and yall most likely know some of the same hymns I know and read from the same Book.

Would my Integrity or yours be lessenned if that were to become our common circumstance.

I'm not saying it would not be a close vote :D ; when me or you put my name for the brothers or sisters.

I'm just saying there might be enough common salvific ground I would be allowed in the fellowship without jeopardizing my or your livelihood or Integrity?

Can you see the point?

My list above stands. The Invitation continues to you to join in in full Fellowship someday.

As it stands lets honorCrwaford Toy's Noble Witness,his free conscience, his human inclination to seek out some body of believers and good will; else it seems to me you castrate a core Historic BAPTIST principle, Mullinesque of the line of George Truett and as Weaver has said Roger Williams himself.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby William Thornton » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:06 pm

Stephen, if you find a Unitarian church there around Collinsville and feel compelled to join it, then I'd say that you have compromised something.

But we agree big time on BBQ. Make it over here. If you come on a Sunday, plan to put big bucks in the offering plate...we need it.

Stephen Fox wrote:Thornton, My Brother in Christ Jesus

I could imagine circumstances where if I lived not far from Billy Sunday Birt, with my fascination for his story, I might have enough in common with him as Clay and his Baptism and Profession of Faith, that I might join the Statham Baptist Church with you as Pastor.

You and I both know we differ on several matters, some of them quite core. But for the most part I take ayll to be sober people and I might like the fellowship ofsober folks sometime during the week, and yall most likely know some of the same hymns I know and read from the same Book.

Would my Integrity or yours be lessenned if that were to become our common circumstance.

I'm not saying it would not be a close vote :D ; when me or you put my name for the brothers or sisters.

I'm just saying there might be enough common salvific ground I would be allowed in the fellowship without jeopardizing my or your livelihood or Integrity?

Can you see the point?

My list above stands. The Invitation continues to you to join in in full Fellowship someday.

As it stands lets honorCrwaford Toy's Noble Witness,his free conscience, his human inclination to seek out some body of believers and good will; else it seems to me you castrate a core Historic BAPTIST principle, Mullinesque of the line of George Truett and as Weaver has said Roger Williams himself.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Mark » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:19 pm

William Thornton wrote:Mark, I'm pretty close to Mohler on this (although he didn't check with me before he wrote)....

So you basically agree with Mohler that, because Crawford Toy allegedly abandoned the faith and joined the Unitarian church late in life, moderate Baptists such as Flick and me don't believe the Bible? That's more or less what he was saying.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:22 pm

Mark wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Mark, I'm pretty close to Mohler on this (although he didn't check with me before he wrote)....

So you basically agree with Mohler that, because Crawford Toy allegedly abandoned the faith and joined the Unitarian church late in life, moderate Baptists such as Flick and me don't believe the Bible? That's more or less what he was saying.


I think we can read William's comment a little bit more charitably.

Here's the jist of what Mohler said as it relates to other moderate Baptists:

The admiration of liberal Baptists for Crawford Howell Toy should be a matter of both amazement and genuine concern. It is also a telling indication of how many of those identified as “moderates” in the Southern Baptist Convention controversy actually view the Bible. To celebrate Toy is to celebrate his beliefs about the Bible. Those beliefs were not heroic.


Mohler made a big leap here. Tony dubbed Toy a "Baptist hero" but I have not heard many others dub Toy as a Baptist hero - partially, I assume, because he left the Baptist tradition. Mohler also implies that Toy and the Unitarians were on the same page theologically. That's not for certain either as I mentioned earlier.

Another question might be: what does it mean to celebrate Toy as a Baptist hero? If Toy is dubbed a Baptist hero, does this mean that we are celebrating his beliefs or something else? It appears Tony was celebrating Toy's integrity.

Mohler has a point IF 1) to celebrate Toy = to celebrate his beliefs AND 2) many moderate Baptists in addition to Tony were celebrating Toy.

And I think that Mohler probably does have a point concerning the intellectual leaders of moderate Baptists from the time of Toy through the Takeover. On the whole, the intellectuals among the moderates (the professors primarily) were probably more leftward-leaning regarding biblical inspiration than many moderates have been willing to admit.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby William Thornton » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:28 pm

Mark, no need to read my stuff charitably, better to be charitable...send money.

Timothy, I tossed in the ABCer stuff gratuitously...to see if any of you guys snuck over here to read this.

Look, in my time as an SBC pastor, beginning in 1982, there have been a number of prominent SBC mod/libs who have converted to Episcopalian, Roman Catholic and, of course, plenty of ABCers. If mod/libs are to claim the mantle of being the authentic Baptists, at the least they could stay with some Baptist affiliation.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:54 pm

I'm a little too tuckered right now to do my thoughts justice; they are grander than my ability to master at the moment

With that caveat I want to repeat some things I've said before.

John Shelley's Furman Magazine circa 2003 on Herbert Gezork should be read by many of you fascinated with the implications of this Toy Discussion.

Cheryl Miller's Review of the works of Marilynne Robinson is magnificent for this discussion in the Fall 09 issue still on most Barnes and Noble newsracks.
Tim Bonney, And Aaron Weaver should pursure both suggestions; very much worth your time.

Crawford Toy has exponential more Integrity and prudence, and wisdom than Mohler and Paige Patterson; else George W. Bush and Abraham Lincoln were ofEqual value for our Great Country and George Truett is synonymous Jerry Falwell.

Tell me you believe that; and the WMU has no stock in what Mohler and Paigeare doing to the Lottie Brand. Tell me I'm wrong and then Iwill have a better grip on where the Cartledge detractors are coming from.

I think Charles Kimball eloquently addresses Bdidd's reservations about Baptist Scholarship.

Why go to Sunday School if Paige Patterson and Criswell understand and teach the
Bible perfectly.

If it weren't for Marney and Will Campbell, Stewart Newman and a host of others--the Geneaology of Dissent-- to counteract the carnival of Criswell and Paige, I woulda joined the church of Leon Russell long time ago as I confess Istill enjoy his music but it is not theSAlvation story of Jesus; neither is the SBC of Mohler, Paige and Criswell I have come to dismiss as much lesser than the insight of Toy and his legacy and the tradition of pursuit of which he was part of the fabric
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Mark » Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:14 pm

BDiddy wrote:I think we can read William's comment a little bit more charitably....

Well, to be honest, BDiddy...
(I think William probably knows I really do believe the Bible; but I have to nonetheless tweak him from time to time in order to keep him honest. Don't tell him I said that, though.)


Now ya'll carry on. :wink:
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:57 am

It just seems a typical Mohler smear tactic. JUst because Cartledge celebrated Toy's integrity, all moderates must celebrate his theology. To be truthful, I've never read any of Toy's writings. Anyone who ever took Logic 101 knows Mohler's major and minor premises will not support his conclusion.
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Re: Crawford Toy a "heretic" not a hero - Mohler

Postby David Flick » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:14 am

Mark wrote:
William Thornton wrote:Mark, I'm pretty close to Mohler on this (although he didn't check with me before he wrote)....

So you basically agree with Mohler that, because Crawford Toy allegedly abandoned the faith and joined the Unitarian church late in life, moderate Baptists such as Flick and me don't believe the Bible? That's more or less what he was saying.

Mark, it seems to me Mohler was more or less declaring moderate Baptists to have abandoned the faith in scriptures. I certainly believe the Bible and I believe you do. I think fundamentalist Baptists tend to believe that anyone who doesn't buy their interpretation of scripture has abandoned the faith. I appreciated Tony's article...
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David Flick
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