AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Mark » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:04 am

I'm beginning to see a trend here:

1. The New SBC's Revisionist View of AWANA
If you ignore AWANA's pastor approval statement; its creedalism; its political overtones; its hardline dispensationalism; its threat to LifeWay, R.A.'s, and WMU; its pledge to The Republic of AWANA; and its decades of being a mainstay in meanspirited, Independent Baptist churches... then AWANA is a good thing.

2. The New SBC's Revisionist View of Inerrancy
If you ignore Inerrancy's silly caveats; its multiple definitions and exceptions; its zillion-plus contradictions of itself; its threat to intellectual honesty, Christian fellowship, and serious scholarship; its decades of being a mainstay in meanspirited, Fundamentalist churches; and that the term has never appeared in a single version of Baptist Faith & Message since first published in 1925... then Inerrancy is a good thing.
Mark
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:05 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:29 am

Mark wrote:I'm beginning to see a trend here:

1. The New SBC's Revisionist View of AWANA
If you ignore AWANA's pastor approval statement; its creedalism; its political overtones; its hardline dispensationalism; its threat to LifeWay, R.A.'s, and WMU; its pledge to The Republic of AWANA; and its decades of being a mainstay in meanspirited, Independent Baptist churches... then AWANA is a good thing.

2. The New SBC's Revisionist View of Inerrancy
If you ignore Inerrancy's silly caveats; its multiple definitions and exceptions; its zillion-plus contradictions of itself; its threat to intellectual honesty, Christian fellowship, and serious scholarship; its decades of being a mainstay in meanspirited, Fundamentalist churches; and that the term has never appeared in a single version of Baptist Faith & Message since first published in 1925... then Inerrancy is a good thing.


In honor of my friend Mark, I recommend that he and other mod/libs do this:

1. Find a children's program: that doesn't teach the Bible; where kids don't learn the Bible, lest their memorizing Bible verses lead them down the path of legalism; that kids don't love to attend; that folks in church really don't care to volunteer for; doesn't lead to kids trusting Christ as their Lord and Savior; that doesn't include any pledges; that doesn't have any taint of independent churches...and use that. Such would be a good thing, I suppose, in the mindset of moderates and liberals who are afraid that learning the Bible, pledging the US, Christian, and AWANA flag, and having fun might be harmful to kids.

2. Have the boldness to be the first mod/lib to actually compose a statement of belief that includes errancy and see how well that works. It might be a very good thing.

Go for it bro... :angel:
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby ET » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:29 pm

William Thornton wrote:2. Have the boldness to be the first mod/lib to actually compose a statement of belief that includes errancy and see how well that works. It might be a very good thing.

Go for it bro... :angel:

Gotta love that one. I do wish they would compose such a statement on the "errancy of Scripture". :D

"Meanspirited"? I thought that was a political term used to describe the intentions of those opposed to the noble goals of the Democratic party. I didn't know it had a religious meaning also. I suppose it is a general term to disparage those with whom one doesn't agree.

Ed - who will be taking his daughter to church tonight to participate in her AWANA group.
***
Edited to add: I just did a search on AWANA on this board....didn't know it was such cause for debate. Interesting.
I'm Ed Thompson, and I approve this message.
User avatar
ET
 
Posts: 2777
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:20 pm
Location: Cordova, TN

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Steve Wilcox » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:30 pm

William Thornton wrote:2. Have the boldness to be the first mod/lib to actually compose a statement of belief that includes errancy and see how well that works. It might be a very good thing.

Go for it bro... :angel:


I nominate this for a golden spur!!! :lol:
Steve Wilcox
 
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 5:21 pm

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:50 pm

ET wrote: Edited to add: I just did a search on AWANA on this board....didn't know it was such cause for debate. Interesting.


...only a cause for debate because our friendly mod/libs don't know much about it and , nevertheless, feel unhindered in making extreme pronouncements as to its efficacy or destructiveness to the souls of young lads and lassies. :)
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Jerry_B » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:10 pm

The only thing I have AWANA is that the doctrinal statement, which last I checked had to be signed by the pastor, is limited to dispensationalism, which I am not and therefore don't teach and the cost of the materials. But I say that about every thing so I don't know if that really counts.

In my younger days I taught AWANA and enjoyed it I guess, the game circle was always the big thing to look forward to. It can be a good program but it takes a lot of people to run right so it has never been in the running for the churches I have been fortunate enough to pastor. We feel blessed to have people teaching Sunday School, let alone another program.

There are times the scriptures get taken a bit out of context, but for the most part it's a good thing to have children reading and memorizing the Bible. Though I'm not sure how I feel about making it into a contest, although I am always a sucker for good ole Sword Drill!
Jerry_B
 
Posts: 440
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 10:15 pm
Location: Texas

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Norm » Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:54 pm

William Thornton wrote: ... Have the boldness to be the first mod/lib to actually compose a statement of belief that includes errancy and see how well that works. It might be a very good thing. Go for it bro... :angel:


Scripture, inspired of God, is sufficient to enact faith leading to salvation in its varied forms.
Norm
 

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:45 pm

Jerry_B wrote:The only thing I have AWANA is that the doctrinal statement, which last I checked had to be signed by the pastor, is limited to dispensationalism, which I am not and therefore don't teach and the cost of the materials. But I say that about every thing so I don't know if that really counts.

In my younger days I taught AWANA and enjoyed it I guess, the game circle was always the big thing to look forward to. It can be a good program but it takes a lot of people to run right so it has never been in the running for the churches I have been fortunate enough to pastor. We feel blessed to have people teaching Sunday School, let alone another program.

There are times the scriptures get taken a bit out of context, but for the most part it's a good thing to have children reading and memorizing the Bible. Though I'm not sure how I feel about making it into a contest, although I am always a sucker for good ole Sword Drill!


I don't know how many times I have to say it but no pastor is required to sign AWANA's statement of beliefs. This is a change within the past two or three years.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Cathy » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:01 am

GA recognition service last night. As always well attended. Cookies and punch afterward. I wouldn't want to raise girls without GAs. I morn the fact that next year is the last for our family. Long live the WMU and it's programs. RAs service next week. Never been to that myself, but no shortage of boys and men involved and running around in their vests on Wednesday nights.

There is plenty of room for bible memory in churches and certainly GAs has quite a bit less than when I was one. We do have the usual Sunday School promotions for bible verse memory and some separate programs for shorter periods during the year.

For that matter we have hymn memorization recognitions as well.

Glad you guys like your programs and I certainly love and respect the programs that I was raised on and sent/send my children to.

Now if we had audio I would break into a verse of Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam. Even with the name change Mission Friends is great.
Cathy
 
Posts: 780
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:10 am

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Haruo » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:55 pm

Cathy wrote:1) For that matter we have hymn memorization recognitions as well.
...
2) Now if we had audio I would break into a verse of Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam.


1) Yay!

2) In the St. Patrick's Day parade this year I think there was a fairly sizable drill team of elementary-school-age girls marching to Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam, which I knew from hymnals but don't think I'd ever heard sung before. Cute.

Haruo
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11700
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 8:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby David Flick » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:10 am

Steve Wilcox wrote:
William Thornton wrote:2. Have the boldness to be the first mod/lib to actually compose a statement of belief that includes errancy and see how well that works. It might be a very good thing.

Go for it bro... :angel:


I nominate this for a golden spur!!! :lol:

Can't do it, Steve. Why? Because the antonym of "biblical inerrancy" is not "biblical errancy." Biblical inerrancy posits that there are absolutely no verbal or textual errors in the Bible. It also posits absolutely no contradictions in the Bible. Fact is that the Bible does contain verbal and textual errors, as well as contradictions, within its texts. That moderate and liberal Baptists do not buy the doctrine of biblical inerrancy does not mean they don't believe the Bible is sufficient as a guide for faith and practice.

I don't believe the Bible is "inerrant" (as defined by the fundamentalists). My faith is not based on a belief in a perfect scripture/book (as in "word of God"). My faith is based on belief in a perfect Savior (as in "Word of God").
User avatar
David Flick
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8414
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:55 pm
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Mark » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:06 pm

NewsFlash! Lo and behold, I had an unexpected Brush With AWANA yesterday. It was scary, but I survived. :o :o

Spent the whole day at an areawide mental health-related conference held (because of the anticipated crowd) at our enormous local formerly-Southern-Baptist-turned-Independent-but-now-Southern-Baptist-again congregation which, for the record, does many good things despite their longtime veneration of J. Frank Norris and Jerry Falwell. In fact, it was probably good for them to experience my presence (rather than vice-versa, of course), so they are probably an even better church today than they were 48 hours ago. :)

Anyway, there were gigantic, bigger-than-life AWANA posters everywhere. Yikes! But in honor of my friend William, even though he discourages the proclamation of "Roll Tide" in worship services, I actually stopped at looked at several of them. Even glanced at an AWANA brochure.

Just glad to have lived to tell about it. :D

(BTW, for those who missed the earlier (but still ongoing) AWANA discussion which preciptated this thread, it may be found here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5698&st=0&sk=t&sd=a )
Mark
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:05 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:03 am

Mark wrote:NewsFlash! Lo and behold, I had an unexpected Brush With AWANA yesterday. It was scary, but I survived. :o :o


Timothy would probably want you to check for collateral damage, bro. You can't be too careful about a program where kids learn Bible verses and have fun doing it. :D
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Norm » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:23 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Mark wrote:NewsFlash! Lo and behold, I had an unexpected Brush With AWANA yesterday. It was scary, but I survived. :o :o


Timothy would probably want you to check for collateral damage, bro. You can't be too careful about a program where kids learn Bible verses and have fun doing it. :D


And the leader of such outcomes was replaced given she was not an inerrantist. Seems the outcomes were not important enough.
Norm
 

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Mark » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:46 pm

William Thornton wrote:You can't be too careful about a program where kids learn Bible verses and have fun doing it.... :D

Go back and read my very first post in this thread, William. Nobody is criticizing the good parts of AWANA, once all the silly legalism is removed. But one must have all of that in order to be consistent with the New SBC these days.
Mark
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:05 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:31 am

Since the idea of legalism ('silly legalism' to be accurate) in AWANA has been introduced, how about one of you guys with no first hand experience with the program explain exactly how this works?

I think my mod/lib friends here have become what they hate.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Mark » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:58 pm

William Thornton, Defender of All Things AWANA, and likely receives kickbacks, wrote:
Since the idea of legalism ('silly legalism' to be accurate) in AWANA has been introduced, how about one of you guys with no first hand experience with the program explain exactly how this works?

How what works? Did I mischaracterize any of AWANA's stipulations or components in my initial post?


William Thornton, Defender of All Things AWANA, and likely receives kickbacks, wrote:
I think my mod/lib friends here have become what they hate...

How so? (Be nice, Wm.)
Mark
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:05 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:06 pm

Mark, lapsing into kneejerk mode on AWANA wrote:
Wm asked: Since the idea of legalism ('silly legalism' to be accurate) in AWANA has been introduced, how about one of you guys with no first hand experience with the program explain exactly how this works?

Mark answered: How what works? Did I mischaracterize any of AWANA's stipulations or components in my initial post?


My question concerned the practice of legalism in the program. Congratulations on being able to access a website for a belief statement (I'm not sure you produced any stipulations but don't have time to go back an reread all your stuff on this), but that is hardly evidence of 'silly legalism'. In your experience with the AWANA program how have you observed 'silly legalism' to be exhibited? Presumably, there are lessons, programs, teaching of 'silly legalism' that are inflicted on the young minds of AWANA attendees. How about demonstrating how this works? Tim was certain of 'collateral damage' based on zero personal experience. You of 'silly legalism.' I have years of experience running the program (as does Jonathan) and I haven't seen one example of either. So...??

William Thornton, Defender of All Things AWANA, and likely receives kickbacks, wrote:
I think my mod/lib friends here have become what they hate...

Mark wrote:How so? (Be nice, Wm.)


This is how: Mod/libs complain about fundies slamming their folks or programs without knowledge or cause. This is exactly what is happening here. This is a fundyish slam at AWANA, not merely an expression of preference.

Next thing you know you will be busing folks in to vote on it...
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Mark » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:22 am

True, the "silly legalism" reference does not refer to any firsthand experience with AWANA. (I didn't grow up Fundamentalist Baptist, so shoot me.) My observations are drawn from the self-described facts and stipulations of using AWANA before ever being implemented, as outlined in my very first post (the one you don't have time to go back and read). You still haven't disputed any of those facts and stipulations, except for the required pastor's endorsement, which you or somebody said has been modified. (Which merely proves, once again, that money or expediency often trumps doctrine, despite the claims of Fundamentalists to the contrary.)

Having said all of that, William, I'm sure that you're a very good AWANA facilitator (and corporate AWANA board member). :)
Mark
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:05 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Mon Apr 21, 2008 8:41 am

Mark wrote:True, the "silly legalism" reference does not refer to any firsthand experience with AWANA. (I didn't grow up Fundamentalist Baptist, so shoot me.) My observations are drawn from the self-described facts and stipulations of using AWANA before ever being implemented, as outlined in my very first post (the one you don't have time to go back and read). You still haven't disputed any of those facts and stipulations, except for the required pastor's endorsement, which you or somebody said has been modified. (Which merely proves, once again, that money or expediency often trumps doctrine, despite the claims of Fundamentalists to the contrary.)

Having said all of that, William, I'm sure that you're a very good AWANA facilitator (and corporate AWANA board member). :)


Your first post is quite short. It shouldn't be hard to go back, reread it, and point out where the 'silly legalism' is. Is it the "pastor approval statement" which no pastor has to approve? Is it the "creedalism" which you didn't point out? Is it the "political overtones" which are left unspecified? Is it the "hardline dispensationalism" which I haven't ever seen in the program?

If there is 'silly legalism' sufficient for you to label it such, there's gotta be evidence of the same...else, my mod friend is not his usual circumspect and careful commentator self. :)
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Mark » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:18 am

William Thornton wrote:Your first post is quite short...

Short, but nonetheless profound.


William Thornton wrote:It shouldn't be hard to go back, reread it, and point out where the 'silly legalism' is. Is it the "pastor approval statement" which no pastor has to approve? Is it the "creedalism" which you didn't point out? Is it the "political overtones" which are left unspecified? Is it the "hardline dispensationalism" which I haven't ever seen in the program? If there is 'silly legalism' sufficient for you to label it such, there's gotta be evidence of the same...else, my mod friend is not his usual circumspect and careful commentator self... :)

Don't get short with me. :D

Answers to each one of those questions have already addressed ad nauseum by our BL.Com peers in the other thread in which AWANA is/was being discussed: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5698 I see no need to rehash all of it, lest you think I have a negative view of AWANA.
:angel:

The phrase "silly legalism" seems to have especially chafed you. So for the record, I'll publicly state: William is a serious legalist rather than a silly one. 8) :)
Mark
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:05 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:35 am

While I appreciate the honor of having this topic in my name...I expected my mod friend to at least describe some of the 'silly legalism.' But then, sometimes we just toss out stuff... :)
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Rock » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:12 pm

William Thornton wrote:
2. Have the boldness to be the first mod/lib to actually compose a statement of belief that includes errancy and see how well that works. It might be a very good thing.

Go for it bro... :angel:


William,

"Without error in all matters of faith and practice," is as good today as it ever was. Some day before you leave this world for the next you might come to the realization that errancy is not the opposite of inerrancy. Worship the Word of God, the word. Anything less is idolotry which is expressly forbidden in the book. To each his own.
Rock
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:14 pm

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby William Thornton » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:19 pm

Rock wrote:
William Thornton wrote:
2. Have the boldness to be the first mod/lib to actually compose a statement of belief that includes errancy and see how well that works. It might be a very good thing.

Go for it bro... :angel:


William,

"Without error in all matters of faith and practice," is as good today as it ever was. Some day before you leave this world for the next you might come to the realization that errancy is not the opposite of inerrancy. Worship the Word of God, the word. Anything less is idolotry which is expressly forbidden in the book. To each his own.


I think to many moderates and liberals, errancy is errancy and carries the meaning that the Bible is not truth without mixture of error.

I admit to tweaking my mod/lib friends with the statement though. :angel:
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 11814
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: AWANA / inerrancy revisited, in honor of William

Postby Rock » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:47 am

William Thornton wrote:
Rock wrote:
William Thornton wrote:
2. Have the boldness to be the first mod/lib to actually compose a statement of belief that includes errancy and see how well that works. It might be a very good thing.

Go for it bro... :angel:


William,

"Without error in all matters of faith and practice," is as good today as it ever was. Some day before you leave this world for the next you might come to the realization that errancy is not the opposite of inerrancy. Worship the Word of God, not the word. Anything less is idolotry which is expressly forbidden in the book. To each his own.


I think to many moderates and liberals, errancy is errancy and carries the meaning that the Bible is not truth without mixture of error.

I admit to tweaking my mod/lib friends with the statement though. :angel:


That is just speculation on your part. Nonetheless, I consider myself tweaked. Oh, don't drop "...the all matters of faith and practice." It is "Truth without mixture of error in all matters of faith and practice."
Rock
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:14 pm

Next

Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron