Wall of Separation Between Church and State?

[T. D. Webb]

In scouring the internet for documentation that supports Bruce's postition that Baptists from Colonial days have specifically opposed governmental tax exemptions for religious institutions as an aspect of their advocacy of the separation between Church and State (Sorry Bruce. . .this Okie found no documentary evidence which supported your argument.), this Okie ran across an article entitled, “Origins and Dangers of the ‘Wall of Separation’ Between Church and State” which addresses a corollary perspective of this issue. Any comments or response?


In His Grace and Peace,

[Bruce Gourley]

My argument was and is that Baptists opposed tax favoritism across the board prior to the 20th century. In every instance in which Baptists addressed the issue of taxes related to the church (including ministers), they voiced opposition to tax favoritism toward religion because it was viewed as a violation of the Baptist belief in the separation of church and state. I've shown evidence backing up this assertion, while you've shown no evidence to the contrary.

On the other hand, your argument was and is that if the government does not show tax favoritism to the government, the separation of church and state is violated. As to historical evidence for your position, you've offered ...

... nothing.

As to Dreisbach, he declares, "The rhetoric of "separation of church and state" and "a wall of separation" has been instrumental in transforming judicial and popular constructions of the First Amendment from a provision protecting and encouraging religion in public life to one restricting religion’s place and role in civic culture."

However, contrary to his assertion, in the past half decade religion in the public sphere has been much more pronounced than at earlier times in American history (only in the last fifty-two years, for example, has "Under God" been included in the Pledge of Allegiance; only in the past three decades has a major political party incorporated into its platform the religious convictions of a particular religious group), and today a much larger percentage of Americans consider themselves religious than in the early years of our nation.

Rather than hindering religious life in America, the Baptist-inspired wall of separation of church and state and religious liberty for all has created an environment for the growth and nurture of religion in general in America ... a pluralism which in turn outraged Christian fundamentalists of the late 20th century, who have sought to redefine religious liberty in such a manner as to grant it fully only to themselves, while as they turn America into a "Christian nation."

[Dave Roberts]

One of the best treatments of the issue of religious liberty and the separation of church and state is in Brooks Hays and John Steely's book The Baptist Way of Life (Mercer University Press, 2nd edition, 1981). The quotations from Roger Williams and John Leland ground this for most Baptists.

A second and more brief treatment is "Freedom for the Journey" by Phyllis Rogerson Pleasants (Center for Baptist Heritage and Studies, 2002). She details in a more popular vein the meaning of Baptist freedoms profiling major figures in that including James Ireland, Ann Hasseltine Judson, William Carey, Roger Williams, and W. H. Whitsett.

Another more volumious source is Leon McBeth's "The Baptist Heritage" (Broadman Press, 1987). Unfortunately, the internet doesn't always take you to the best resources.

[T. D. Webb]

While several aspects of Dr. Dreisbach's article impress this Okie, one is particularly noteworthy. That is, the manner in which the meaning of the phrase "wall of separation" which was first enunciated by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists in Connecticut (which had established the Congregationalist Church as its "State Church") has been re-interpreted during the last century and a half. The term initially referred to an essential feature of Federalism as it was espoused in our U. S. Constitution, particularly in the First Amendment. The purpose of "Separation of Church and State" was originally designed to prevent the National Government from establishing a State Religion or preventing the free exercise of religion. Thus, religion was protected from being unduly controlled or influenced by the national government. Later, the respective states followed suit by placing state constitutional protection in place so that state government would be barred from actions which would result in the establishment of a particular religion, or encroaching on the free exercise thereof.

By the way, neither Bruce nor anyone else has pointed to any empirical evidence that the subject of "State tax exemptions for religious institutions" ever became an issue, or much less, was opposed by Baptists, until sometime in the twentieth century.

Moreover, as Dr. Dreisbach (whose credentials are impeccable and whose arguments have not been refuted with logic or evidence) pointed out, just as the First Amendment Constitutional provision which guarantees the freedom of the press does not imply that the Amendment is not reciprocal (protecting the government from the press), neither did the 1st Amendment initially propose to protect the government from religious institutions.


In His Grace and Peace,

[Haruo]

[Bruce Gourley]

[Bruce Gourley]

[T. D. Webb]

[Bruce Gourley]