Few moderate women pastors...Mohler finally gets on board

[David Flick]

[rdenton]

[Sandy]

[David Flick]

[pjerwin]

[Ed Pettibone]

[David Flick]

[David Flick]

I still have the list of questions that were asked at my ordination. The DOM, Bro. P. E. Tapp (who died at the age of 94 this past January), asked an interesting question. .

Interestingly, Bro Tapp, didn't think to ask me what I would do if the entire denomination changed theology such that I would eventually disagree with them. I was ordained three years after the adoption of the 63BF&M. Bro Tapp didn't tell me that the SBC would eventually turn the BF&M into a creed in 2000...

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

[rdenton]

[Sandy]

[pjerwin]

[pjerwin]

[Ed Pettibone]

Unlike in Southern Baptist life, temporary ordination councils and local churches (inthe ABC) are not in charge of large portions of the ordination process, rather that is deferred to permanent Regional Ministers Councils: American Baptist churches are "provided the opportunity to be part of ordination councils" through Regional Ministers Councils, who not only determine the process, but also determine appropriate candidates and determine the make-up of ordination councils


Ed: P.J. I can not speak to your short experience in Indiana ABC, but in my 8 years in the ABC-USA in two regions and 3 associations when it comes to ordination the basic unit has been the local church. in concert with the local association. In the Ohio region it is true that in addition to being examined by the local church and the association a candidate is also examined by a regional council. Here in Up State NY, the regional council pretty much goes on the recommendation of the association. They may and do however raise further questions if the report of the associational ordination committee (not council) is deemed to be incomplete or indicates unresolved issues among the committee.


pjerwin also wrote:
... In the 6 Southern Baptist associations and 8 Southern Baptist churches of which I have been a part over a 20-year period, I have never seen it done in the manner in which David describes.


Ed: P.J. in my first 20 years in the SBC ( 5 states, 7 associations and 12 churches) I would have said the same thing. In fact it wasn't until I had been in 7 states, 10 associations and 15 churches, that I ran into something like what David describes. A church where I attended in Florida sponsored 2 missions in the everglades. when one of those mission churches called a young man who had grown up in the area and was commuting to Palm Beach College they turned his ordination over to the "Parent" church entirely except that one of their deacons did participate in the examination period and lead in one of the prayers of dedication and their congrgation attended in mass. I think David's first church was also a mission. I have an idea that is why the association had such a strong part in his ordination. I guess we may have to wait for him to return from Alasks to verify that.

[pjerwin]

[Ed Pettibone]

[jerryl]

William was right, this deserves its own thread, but too much discussion has been invested in this one.

Let's get the terminology straight;

ABC Churches Ordain, ABC Regions Recognize Ordination. There is no such thing as a ABC ordination, there is an ABC Recognized Ordination.

Nothing (or at least very little) keeps an ABC church from ordaining a candidate without Regional recognition. My church did just that this weekend.

And it is the Region, not the Regional Ministers Council or Association that is the ultimate gatekeeper of the recognition process. The Region may and often does 'offload', much of the work of the Recognition process to the Ministers Council or the Association, but it is the Region that is the ultimate arbiter of how the process works. That causes and allows some variance in procedure between regions.

Most of the time, a candidate goes through the ordination and recognition process at the same time, and the church relies on the Regionally approved process to vet the candidate. But that does not mean the church could not ordain the candidate without the approval of the Region's process.

And the way I understand it is that a minister who is already ordained by another Baptist church and wishes to have his ordination recognized by the ABC Region does not have to be 're-ordained' but while going through the same process, can simply have his original ordination 'recognized' by the sponsoring ABC church and the churches region.

I'm uncomfortable with David's assertion that there is no difference between an ABC and an SBC ordination council. The process that most (all?) regions use for recognition is typically much longer, more detailed, more prescribed than a typical SBC ordination council who often only meet only at the ordination service itself.

And Sandy, while you may have been part of an ordination given by an ABC-USA church, with only the detail that you have given, I'm not sure that the ordination is one that is recognized by the ABC Region and therefor the ABC-USA as a whole.

But since ABC churches are not required to only ordain those who will be recognized by their Region, and they are not required to only accept ministers who's recognition is ordained (as Ed noted, ABC churches have accepted ministers who have been ordained in non-baptist churches) I don't see the ABC-USA is some sort of semi-presbyterial denomination. (Unless you want to see the ABC-USA as 'semi-Presbyterian' with an opt out clause.)

jerryl

[Neil Heath]

[Howard]

Honestly, I'd argue that the NT knows nothing of the practice we know as ordination. Have I missed a portion of the NT? Ordination as we know it will be hard pressed to be established on a NT basis.

I agree that the "two tiered" notion of Christians in a church has scant biblical support.

But we have made ordination a big deal. As I see it, any regular church member [for lack of a better handle] can do any church function or perform any church ordinance that any ordained person can. Don't give me this business of clergy somehow being a "higher" class.

[rdenton]

[pjerwin]

[pjerwin]

[Haruo]

[pjerwin]