Burleson cites Ethics Daily.com

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Burleson cites Ethics Daily.com

Postby T. D. Webb » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:46 am

In today's (6/7/06) Grace and Truth to You blog post, Wade Burleson references an article from Ethics.com which very succinctly summarizes the chronology of the controversy in the IMB BoT. The specific article can be viewed at:

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=7437 (This Okie has not yet learned how to do the HERE maneuver. :oops: )

In His Grace and Peace,
Last edited by T. D. Webb on Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby William Thornton » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:34 am

The Ethics Daily piece is a tour de force of the whole Burleson thing, which in itself illustrates part of Burleson's difficulty: after the first few paragraphs it is an eye roller and a yawner. I can't see how most SBs, even involved SB church pastors and layfolks, can grasp the whole thing.

It is an eyebrow raiser that B refers to Ethics Daily, known CBF sympathizers. :wink:

There is more about John Floyd new imb chm in that piece than anywhere I've seen. He is far more capable than his predecessor and far more experienced and knowledgable as well. He has paid his dues and ought to be heard before drawing conclusions.
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Postby pjerwin » Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:00 am

Of course, "Ethics"Daily.com misses no opportunity to "stick-it-to" the SBC, especially when they can gig the SBC on tines of its own making.
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Postby T. D. Webb » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:24 am

William Thornton wrote:There is more about John Floyd new imb chm in that piece than anywhere I've seen. He is far more capable than his predecessor and far more experienced and knowledgable as well. He has paid his dues and ought to be heard before drawing conclusions.


William, this Okie's reaction to the article was somewhat different, though my bias may be playing tricks on me. . .

Let's see. . .it appears that Floyd was the driving force behind the changes in requirements for Missionaries regarding a private prayey language and the narrowed parameters restricting particulars as to how Missionaries' baptisms are required to have been performed. It appears that Floyd is not only in bed with the Landmarker's in the BoT, he also made the bed :roll:

Secondly, Floyd is the one (though not likely the only) current Trustee who has had a long-standing conflict with Dr. Jerry Rankin. Could Floyd, who has mostly been working behind the scenes and currently is ducking under the radar of closer scrutiny, be the one who is using his Trustee position in a predipositioning purpose of removing Rankin :?:

Thirdly, it appears to have been Floyd who was the principal Trustee endorsing the effort to fire the Missionary couple (who had the "audacity" to cooperate with some Christian and Missionary Alliance missionaries by planting a "baptistic" church in the far reaches of West Africa), where to this date there no other Christian churches of any kind had previously existed, and extremist Islamic forces currently dominate in a reign of terror. While the BoT subsequently reversed the decision, the damage (just as in the fiasco of the attempt to remove Burleson) was already done to the couple, the reputation of the IMB, and the spread of the gospel in this treacherous part of the world. How long it will take to reinstate confidence in the people involved in this West African missionary initiative is anyone's guess.

Floyd may be more "capable, experienced and knowledgable" than his predecessor, but as one of the architects of the "narrowed parameters" and the new "IMB BoT Guidelines" (which has developed into being more about stiffling dissent within the BoT than promoting civility and consensus among the Trustees), Floyd is, perhaps a greater danger in the minds of rank and file Southern Baptists than his bungling predecessor.

Is it just me, or is the SBC getting flash-flooded with Floyd's? :idea:


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Postby William Thornton » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:45 am

TD said: Secondly, Floyd is the one (though not likely the only) current Trustee who has had a long-standing conflict with Dr. Jerry Rankin.

wm: how do you know this, Tom?
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Postby T. D. Webb » Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:26 pm

T. D. Webb wrote:Secondly, Floyd is the one (though not likely the only) current Trustee who has had a long-standing conflict with Dr. Jerry Rankin.


William Thornton wrote:how do you know this, Tom?


William, while this Okie doesn't "know" this from personal experience, what I have read leads me to that conclusion. However, I should have documented my previous post. My bad. Below is what I read in the SBC Outpost blog which is run by another famous Georgian, Marty Duren. The post topic was, "Dr. John Floyd Elected as Chairman of IMB BOT"

William, this is how the dialog, which is the basis for my remark, proceeded:

Benjamin Cole wrote:Was Dr. Floyd one of those regional leaders reassigned when Dr. Rankin reorganized the agency and implemented New Directions?

I'm wondering why a man who clearly has many years of service left in him left the field and took a post at Mid-America? Did he take an early retirement?

Am I missing something?


A 10-40 Missionary wrote:John Floyd was a political appointee, a V-P at Mid-America, who was chosen to be the Area Director (later Regional Leader) for Europe. This was in the time between Keith Parks "resignation" and the election of Jerry Rankin. He and Jerry Rankin had some very big differences concerning New Directions, and Dr. Floyd took early retirement from the IMB and returned to Mid-America.


A 10-40 Missionary wrote:John Floyd was appointed BEFORE Jerry Rankin was elected as president of the (then) FMB. A couple of years after his election, New Directions became the missiological direction for the IMB. Dr. Floyd took early retirement at that time because of differences he and Dr. Rankin had over New Directions. . .


A 10-40 Missionary wrote:Looking at this whole issue, I agree that there is probably more, much more at issue than retirement funds. Many of us on the field wonder how a person who "retired" because he could not agree with the missiological direction of the IMB could now chair the BoT and support it?


Marty Duren wrote:Agreed. I don't think that there has been a change of heart toward supporting New Directions. As a matter of fact, the West Africa Committee of which Dr Floyd is/was a member, was the committee that was "planting only Baptist-not baptistic-churches," and, apparently, was the only region with that philosophy.
(sbcoutpost.blogspot.com, May 23-24, 2006)

William, while blogs are generally the bane for those who insist on "spot-on" accuracy in reporting the facts, Benjamin Cole, "A 10-40 Missionary" (This current missionary withheld his/her actual name for obvious reasons), and Marty Duren are credible in this "outsider's" opinion. On the other hand, you may have persuasive contradictory evidence that Floyd and Rankin are closer on the issues than these folks conclude. This Okie is open to changing his view, if that is the case. :D

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Postby William Thornton » Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:36 pm

T. D. Webb wrote:
T. D. Webb wrote:Secondly, Floyd is the one (though not likely the only) current Trustee who has had a long-standing conflict with Dr. Jerry Rankin.


William Thornton wrote:how do you know this, Tom?


William, while this Okie doesn't "know" this from personal experience, what I have read leads me to that conclusion. However, I should have documented my previous post. My bad. Below is what I read in the SBC Outpost blog which is run by another famous Georgian, Marty Duren. The post topic was, "Dr. John Floyd Elected as Chairman of IMB BOT"

William, this is how the dialog, which is the basis for my remark, proceeded:

Benjamin Cole wrote:Was Dr. Floyd one of those regional leaders reassigned when Dr. Rankin reorganized the agency and implemented New Directions?

I'm wondering why a man who clearly has many years of service left in him left the field and took a post at Mid-America? Did he take an early retirement?

Am I missing something?


A 10-40 Missionary wrote:John Floyd was a political appointee, a V-P at Mid-America, who was chosen to be the Area Director (later Regional Leader) for Europe. This was in the time between Keith Parks "resignation" and the election of Jerry Rankin. He and Jerry Rankin had some very big differences concerning New Directions, and Dr. Floyd took early retirement from the IMB and returned to Mid-America.


A 10-40 Missionary wrote:John Floyd was appointed BEFORE Jerry Rankin was elected as president of the (then) FMB. A couple of years after his election, New Directions became the missiological direction for the IMB. Dr. Floyd took early retirement at that time because of differences he and Dr. Rankin had over New Directions. . .


A 10-40 Missionary wrote:Looking at this whole issue, I agree that there is probably more, much more at issue than retirement funds. Many of us on the field wonder how a person who "retired" because he could not agree with the missiological direction of the IMB could now chair the BoT and support it?


Marty Duren wrote:Agreed. I don't think that there has been a change of heart toward supporting New Directions. As a matter of fact, the West Africa Committee of which Dr Floyd is/was a member, was the committee that was "planting only Baptist-not baptistic-churches," and, apparently, was the only region with that philosophy.
(sbcoutpost.blogspot.com, May 23-24, 2006)

William, while blogs are generally the bane for those who insist on "spot-on" accuracy in reporting the facts, Benjamin Cole, "A 10-40 Missionary" (This current missionary withheld his/her actual name for obvious reasons), and Marty Duren are credible in this "outsider's" opinion. On the other hand, you may have persuasive contradictory evidence that Floyd and Rankin are closer on the issues than these folks conclude. This Okie is open to changing his view, if that is the case. :D

In His Grace and Peace,


Yeah, I have read all of those, TD, and do not strongly dispute that JFloyd and Rankin may be at odds on some policy matters. I haven't heard Rankin say that nor Floyd nor other trustees. I would caution anyone against the opinions of these anonymous mssys who have axes of their own to grind and the bloggers whose purposes are served by these anonymous statements. These facts are indisputable about John Floyd: He is a former missionary (Philippines), a former/present prof. of missions at one of Southern Baptist's finest seminaries (MABTS, my alma mater, btw). He is a former IMB administrator. His experience and stature are such that his fellow trustees chose him to hold the most important policymaking position, Cmn of IMB Trustees, at the most critical time in recent IMB history. There has likely not been a more experienced trustee chairman in the history of the IMB, some nerdy research type can correct me if there has.

Ben Cole, I would offer, has a certain baggage. He has discussed it openly. He also has a certain temperament that is clear for all to see. An intelligent and erudite man but not a leader of my choosing. I like much of his extensive blogging but take it carefully.

Marty Duren is the most prominent of the bloggers. I like him. He has provided good and useful information, but only the information he chooses and only by the people he approves. Take his stuff with that caveat.

All of them are not above tendentious posts concerning John Floyd because they seem to be on opposite sides of the current personal and policy disputes. Just look at the attempt to poison the waters against JFloyd over the pension business, and throw Burleson in that heap as well - one of B's more shabby exercises in judgment.

Let there be an open policy debate among the trustees and their SB constituents. I am confident JFloyd is far better equipped than his predecessor in this position.
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Postby T. D. Webb » Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:37 pm

William Thornton wrote:Let there be an open policy debate among the trustees and their SB constituents. I am confident JFloyd is far better equipped than his predecessor in this position.


William, this Okie shares your desire that the Trustees are provided an environ conducive to having "open policy debate" in the coming meetings of the IMB BoT. Yes, their Southern Baptist constituents deserve no less. That Dr. John Floyd is "far better equipped than his predecessor" may not be much of a recommendation, since the predecessor proved to be such a disaster in leading the BoT in the past year. Since Dr. Floyd played a key role in the passage of the policy changes made last November, was involved in the proposed firing of the Missionary couple serving in West Africa, and has a history of differences with Dr. Rankin that possibly led to Dr. Floyd resigning from the IMB and returning to your Alma Mater, (Does anyone outside the BoT know the nature and extent of Dr. Floyd's role in the Wade Burleson matter?) his words and deeds will be under close scrutiny in determining if he uses his new office to effect some semblance of reconciliation within the IMB BoT, opens the channels of media communication, facilitates transparency in BoT deliberations, and recognizes the historic Baptist concept of principled dissent.

Yes, he will need to marshal all of the "equipment, experience, knowledge and capabilities" at his disposal to meet the needs that are critically apparent in the IMB. Moreover, he should be even-handed, fair, equitable, open to the possibility of change, non-vindictive (is that a word :?: ) and demonstrate a cooperative spirit, even with those who may not agree with all of his positions. Sadly, none of the foregoing qualities were priorities in the previous administration. Dr. Floyd has a row to hoe and much to prove. . .Though this Okie is "from Missouri" right now, I pray that Dr. Floyd will be up to the task.


In His Grace and Peace,
T. D. Webb

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Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:30 am

pjerwin wrote:Of course, "Ethics"Daily.com misses no opportunity to "stick-it-to" the SBC, especially when they can gig the SBC on tines of its own making.


I haven't seen anything over the past twenty-five years that the SBC deserved being "gigged" for that wasn't of its own making. The SBC has richly deserved any criticism it has received for the behavior of its leadership.
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Postby Sandy » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:40 am

William Thornton wrote:The Ethics Daily piece is a tour de force of the whole Burleson thing, which in itself illustrates part of Burleson's difficulty: after the first few paragraphs it is an eye roller and a yawner. I can't see how most SBs, even involved SB church pastors and layfolks, can grasp the whole thing.

It is an eyebrow raiser that B refers to Ethics Daily, known CBF sympathizers. :wink:


That's a bit of an understatement. That ought to give the Pressler-Pattersonites a lot to talk about. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in some of those secret gatherings. Is this a "signal" from Burleson that if their side wins, the moderates will be welcomed back with open arms? Is it a veiled attempt to get moderates to send messengers and support Page? Is it a secret conspiracy to identify moderate voters to get Democrats elected to Congress to impeach Boobdub and Tricky Dicky II? Oh, what was I thinking? Scratch that last question....... :P

William Thornton wrote:There is more about John Floyd new imb chm in that piece than anywhere I've seen. He is far more capable than his predecessor and far more experienced and knowledgable as well. He has paid his dues and ought to be heard before drawing conclusions.


I'm less interested in the mindset of having a person in position who has "paid his dues", especially in Baptist life, than I am in his gifts, talents, experience, knowledge and calling. Southern Baptists, and moderate Baptists for that matter, have selected far too many agency heads, trustees and denominational staff members on the basis of having "paid their dues", or their Baptist pedigree, or who they know, than on the basis of their ability and calling to fit the position. As a result, we have a trustee fight in the IMB, and incompetent management and fiscal irresponsibility in the NAMB.
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Postby William Thornton » Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:50 am

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:There is more about John Floyd new imb chm in that piece than anywhere I've seen. He is far more capable than his predecessor and far more experienced and knowledgable as well. He has paid his dues and ought to be heard before drawing conclusions.


I'm less interested in the mindset of having a person in position who has "paid his dues", especially in Baptist life, than I am in his gifts, talents, experience, knowledge and calling. Southern Baptists, and moderate Baptists for that matter, have selected far too many agency heads, trustees and denominational staff members on the basis of having "paid their dues", or their Baptist pedigree, or who they know, than on the basis of their ability and calling to fit the position. As a result, we have a trustee fight in the IMB, and incompetent management and fiscal irresponsibility in the NAMB.


Let me rephrase that 'paid his dues' since it is often a description of patronage. JFloyd has exactly those things you are interested in: "gifts, talents, experience, knowledge and calling." But then...his critics don't like his views on policy and direction. In contrast, his predecessor seemed to lack some of these but did have in-the-trenches SBC experience.

Reccord clearly has gifts, calling, and all those conservative credentials. He woefully lacked the skills to lead the organization, at least that lack and perhaps much more.
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Postby pjerwin » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:36 pm

Sandy wrote:I haven't seen anything over the past twenty-five years that the SBC deserved being "gigged" for that wasn't of its own making.

Of course you haven't, Sandy. :) Anybody who deserves being gigged deserves it because of something they did, said or didn't do, otherwise they wouldn't deserve being gigged. The question is: "In your view, is there anything over the past 25 years for which the SBC hasn't deserved to be gigged?" :)
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