Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

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Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:01 pm

Al Mohler is now saying (once more) that you are not in God's will unless you are a parent. I realize that the SBC is desperate for full-quiver Baptist families who will fill church pews with little people to make the SBC great again, but does he mean to say that all Christians without children are out of God's will? His certainty about God's will for everyone else is amazing.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby William Thornton » Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:38 pm

Ok, gimme the quote on that, in context.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Sandy » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:46 pm

https://albertmohler.com/2005/08/15/del ... revisited/

There's the whole blog article. In context.

I don't see much difference between his view and that of the Catholic church regarding the use of birth control. His argument is kind of backward, attributing birth control methods with the "sexual revolution" and arguing that the ability to have pleasure without procreation skews God's intent, isn't a Biblical one as much as it is cultural. I don't think he made the point with Biblical support.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Haruo » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:48 pm

William Thornton wrote:Ok, gimme the quote on that, in context.

Yeah, I find it hard to imagine... really hard to imagine... that any Baptist leader, no matter how full of it when it comes to quivers, would say that in those terms.

Sarah was not in God's will until Isaac was born? Abraham was not in God's will until Ishmael was born? Really??
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Haruo » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:49 pm

Deliberate childlessness. Um, Dave, that's a critically important word there that you left out.

What about those who in obedience to God choose celibacy over sex, marital or otherwise?
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Sep 05, 2019 10:20 pm

Haruo wrote:Deliberate childlessness. Um, Dave, that's a critically important word there that you left out.

What about those who in obedience to God choose celibacy over sex, marital or otherwise?


As far as we know, a number of the Apostles may not have had children including the Apostle Paul. As another David would say, Al is full of baloney cheese.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronounceme

Postby William Thornton » Fri Sep 06, 2019 5:40 am

Rather than a Dave drive by, a sentence hanging in the air with no visible support, consider Susan Shaw's criticism here.

The president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary recently tweeted “that to be human is to be a parent.” That’s been a consistent theme for the conservative Southern Baptist leader. In 2005 Mohler said that choosing to be childfree is a “disturbing commitment to perpetual adolescence” that is about avoiding responsibility. Marriage and childbearing, he claims, are “moral” requirements mandated by God. Deliberate childlessness is an act of rebellion against God.

Mohler’s moral outrage stems from reports across the years that birth rates are declining and young people are attaching less importance to having children. For Mohler, this points to moral decline and secularism. He calls for the church to affirm that the “biblical formula calls for adulthood to mean marriage and marriage to mean children.”


At least she points to mohlers historical consistency in the matter. Perhaps, in their quest to save the turtles and polar bears - yea,the entire planet, religious libs might observe that procreation is a divine mandate, that our society in particular is trending towards perpetual adolescence, couples and individuals preferring larger domiciles, toys, and vacations, all with abundance and these without to having to invest in the next generation.

Does this have a moral and spiritual dimension? Of course it does. This is vintage, consistent, persistent Mohler on important macro matters. He should be heard and seriously considered rather than partially heard, caricatured, and ridiculed.

My lib friends have some pet issues du jour, the latest trans/sans/hyper gender outrages and trump's last tweet. As close as they come to this massive macro matter is to whine about the gummit not giving free stuff to couples or decrying the hindrance to gay couples or trios or whatever from adoptions. Why should gummit bear the full costs of raising children? We already pay for universal free education, give billions in tax credits, etc. etc. More will be coming but free stuff cannot overcome the couple who is deliberately childless as a lifestyle choice.

Neither Mohler nor I fail to recognize the long tradition and reality of childless-not-by-choice couples or single by God's design and purpose. But it takes 2.1 or so children per couple to maintain population levels, else we go extinct,

Maybe my lib friends would at least find an evolutionary purpose in sex as a procreative act rather than mere pleasure.

All this criticism makes me feel that if I went around to my mod lib friends progressive and aggressively lib churches I would, one expects, find the best nurseries, the most effective and heavily funded preschool and children's programs, the most baby and child friendly atmosphere. Or would I find a gathering of seniors admiring the renovation of the pipe organ and funeral chapel?
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:45 am

Interestingly, to give context, I'm certain that by now Al has read "The Death of White Christian America." The author traces the decline of mainline protestant denominations in part to their declining birthrate, especially among Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and United Methodists. At the same time, the author notes the steadily higher birthrates among Blacks and more recent Hispanic immigrants. I suspect, but cannot confirm, that this type of statistics lies behind the fear-driven birthrate push since the birthrate among Baptists is also declining. One of the factors that Al does not address is not perpetual adolescence but the postponement of marriage and child-bearing due to the costs of education. To use a personal example, our daughter-in-law had to take a year off between her bachelor's and master's degrees to work in order to have a small nest egg for graduate school and still came out owing money. Also, my wife and I were doing our best to become parents from the time I left seminary. We became parents when I was forty and she was thirty-eight. We had tried to adopt and had been approved but the agency promised children to a lot of couples and took the ones who could make a larger contribution. My wife and I had been through every testing and fertility assistance procedure available in the late 1970's. I guess I take Al's slaps at those who aren't parents at 21 with a bit of ire and realize how many people who have trouble conceiving he is driving away from churches with this totally non-empathetic drivel that doesn't look beyond his declining denominational statistics. William, I hope this gives you my context, and this is no "drive-by comment."
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby KeithE » Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:35 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Al Mohler is now saying (once more) that you are not in God's will unless you are a parent. I realize that the SBC is desperate for full-quiver Baptist families who will fill church pews with little people to make the SBC great again, but does he mean to say that all Christians without children are out of God's will? His certainty about God's will for everyone else is amazing.

Dave,
Do you have any recent article/pronouncement from Mohler? I'd like to know if Mohler is calling for not using birth control and on what basis (e.g. biblical, his own extrapolated interpretation, birth control can amount to abortion, opposition to those he does not like)

The article that Sandy linked was in 2005 and was in fact a “revisit” of his original full-quiver announcement (which I could not find - link in article was dead) where he qualified his accusation of childless couples to only accusing “deliberate” childless couples.

From reading Sandy's link it is apparent that Mohler has a distaste for ecologically-minded couples that are choosing against having children for population control reasons or don’t-want-to-be-bothered-by-children reasons. He called this a “serious moral issue” and an "absolute revolt against God's design". That is a typical conservative attitude which shows a lack of respect for choices that people should have w/o fear of negative reactions.

Does Mohler have a distaste for the Apostle Paul who didn’t even advise marriage?

"Conservative distaste" is a big problem in this country.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Haruo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:01 am

I assume he's referring to the directive to be fruitful and multiply, and suck the earth dry etc. Yes, it would be good to have link to the current statement. Dave, do you have one, or are you drawing on the same secondhand source William did?
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronounceme

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:51 am

William Thornton wrote:All this criticism makes me feel that if I went around to my mod lib friends progressive and aggressively lib churches I would, one expects, find the best nurseries, the most effective and heavily funded preschool and children's programs, the most baby and child friendly atmosphere. Or would I find a gathering of seniors admiring the renovation of the pipe organ and funeral chapel?


It isn't at all a liberal, or even a "mod" idea that people have the right to choose not to have children for numerous reasons that Dr. Mohler fails to take into account. (Unless of course you are in SBC land where even gender equality is a controversial topic.)

I see a number of undercurrents in what Al is saying. The is some underlying sexism in his statements basically telling women that it is God's will that they have children simply because they are women and that their main purpose is procreation. I also see an undercurrent of racism that David has pointed out above.

(And btw, my liberal UMC congregation has a large children and youth program. Feel free to head north sometime and see it.)
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby William Thornton » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:13 pm

Mr. Evidence and Data finds a lot of things al is "basically telling"?

I'm getting a whiff of nonrhinking here from my modlib friends. Dave quoted nary a syllable of Mohler. I'm guessing that he read a tweet about it but didn't read the piece prior to his drive by.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby William Thornton » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:15 pm

My friends here have completely abandoned reason. Read the thing. At least Keith asked for some links.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronounceme

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:17 pm

William Thornton wrote:Rather than a Dave drive by, a sentence hanging in the air with no visible support, consider Susan Shaw's criticism here.

The president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary recently tweeted “that to be human is to be a parent.” That’s been a consistent theme for the conservative Southern Baptist leader. In 2005 Mohler said that choosing to be childfree is a “disturbing commitment to perpetual adolescence” that is about avoiding responsibility. Marriage and childbearing, he claims, are “moral” requirements mandated by God. Deliberate childlessness is an act of rebellion against God.

Mohler’s moral outrage stems from reports across the years that birth rates are declining and young people are attaching less importance to having children. For Mohler, this points to moral decline and secularism. He calls for the church to affirm that the “biblical formula calls for adulthood to mean marriage and marriage to mean children.”


At least she points to mohlers historical consistency in the matter. Perhaps, in their quest to save the turtles and polar bears - yea,the entire planet, religious libs might observe that procreation is a divine mandate, that our society in particular is trending towards perpetual adolescence, couples and individuals preferring larger domiciles, toys, and vacations, all with abundance and these without to having to invest in the next generation.

Does this have a moral and spiritual dimension? Of course it does. This is vintage, consistent, persistent Mohler on important macro matters. He should be heard and seriously considered rather than partially heard, caricatured, and ridiculed.

My lib friends have some pet issues du jour, the latest trans/sans/hyper gender outrages and trump's last tweet. As close as they come to this massive macro matter is to whine about the gummit not giving free stuff to couples or decrying the hindrance to gay couples or trios or whatever from adoptions. Why should gummit bear the full costs of raising children? We already pay for universal free education, give billions in tax credits, etc. etc. More will be coming but free stuff cannot overcome the couple who is deliberately childless as a lifestyle choice.

Neither Mohler nor I fail to recognize the long tradition and reality of childless-not-by-choice couples or single by God's design and purpose. But it takes 2.1 or so children per couple to maintain population levels, else we go extinct,

Maybe my lib friends would at least find an evolutionary purpose in sex as a procreative act rather than mere pleasure.

All this criticism makes me feel that if I went around to my mod lib friends progressive and aggressively lib churches(A) I would, one expects, find the best nurseries, the most effective and heavily funded preschool and children's programs, the most baby and child friendly atmosphere.(B) Or would I find a gathering of seniors admiring the renovation of the pipe organ and funeral chapel?


Ed: William, I am rather sure that I have visited far more Mod to Lib churches than you. I am sure that there has never been a valid study of the "most effective and heavily funded preschool and children's programs, the most baby and child friendly atmosphere.". Actually some of the best facilities and programs, that I have observed have been in well financed ultra conservative mega churches.

However across the full spectrum from Fundamentalist to the most liberal retention of young people aged 18 to 27 seems to be a major problem.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:37 pm

The latest links I can find for Mohler's view come from Focus on the Family in 2016.

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/contributors/al-mohler/
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Sandy » Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:34 pm

William Thornton wrote:My lib friends have some pet issues du jour, the latest trans/sans/hyper gender outrages and trump's last tweet. As close as they come to this massive macro matter is to whine about the gummit not giving free stuff to couples or decrying the hindrance to gay couples or trios or whatever from adoptions. Why should gummit bear the full costs of raising children? We already pay for universal free education, give billions in tax credits, etc. etc. More will be coming but free stuff cannot overcome the couple who is deliberately childless as a lifestyle choice.


After reading through Mohler's piece, noting it is more than a decade past, it's not hard to conclude that SBC leadership of the past 30 years has taken a much more Catholic position on just about everything, including self-appointed individuals like Mohler pontificating and making pronouncements about the way they think things should be in the church based on their perspective and interpretation of the scripture and trying to put the church in a position to issue edicts about the lifestyle and practices of its members lest they find themselves excommunicated. William's paragraph puts a political perspective into the mix. What all those tired cliches and whines about "free stuff, universal free education, tax credits and the fact that the gummit treats people most white Christians hate, namely brown and black Americans who have more kids (as they claim, to get the "free stuff) and the LGBTQ community means is that this issue is also political.

William Thornton wrote: All this criticism makes me feel that if I went around to my mod lib friends progressive and aggressively lib churches I would, one expects, find the best nurseries, the most effective and heavily funded preschool and children's programs, the most baby and child friendly atmosphere. Or would I find a gathering of seniors admiring the renovation of the pipe organ and funeral chapel?


I would guess that you could find an equal number of SBC congregations where the median age is around 70, the congregation is less than a third of what it was during the "heyday" of Brother so and so and it doesn't have to worry about who's going to staff the nursery on Sunday because it doesn't have one.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:06 pm

Having preached in both CBF and SBC churches, I haven't been in one anywhere with a nursery or preschool area bursting at the seams. The bigger problem is that Baptists of all stripes are aging. There are certainly exceptional churches with growing preschool groups, but the absence of evangelism is the real problem in most churches.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Haruo » Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:50 pm

We don't have any preschool normally at Fremont, but we are growing in the 18 to 27 demographic.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:10 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Having preached in both CBF and SBC churches, I haven't been in one anywhere with a nursery or preschool area bursting at the seams. The bigger problem is that Baptists of all stripes are aging. There are certainly exceptional churches with growing preschool groups, but the absence of evangelism is the real problem in most churches.


For Methodists, there really are stats that show that our biggest problem is family size/birthrate. Methodists have historically been rural. Large farm families once were predominant in rural Methodist congregations. In the Midwest people are abandoning small towns for the cities and having smaller families. Both are hurting rural congregations.

I also agree there is a decline in evangelism/outreach. But demographic and cultural changes are also playing a huge role.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:41 am

Haruo wrote:We don't have any preschool normally at Fremont, but we are growing in the 18 to 27 demographic.


Ed: If a significant percentage of that growth are heterosexual, I hope the leadership is preparing for an influx of Preschoolers. :
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:52 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:We don't have any preschool normally at Fremont, but we are growing in the 18 to 27 demographic.


Ed: If a significant percentage of that growth are heterosexual, I hope the leadership is preparing for an influx of Preschoolers. :


?? LGBTQ+ people have children too Ed.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Haruo » Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:58 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:We don't have any preschool normally at Fremont, but we are growing in the 18 to 27 demographic.


Ed: If a significant percentage of that growth are heterosexual, I hope the leadership is preparing for an influx of Preschoolers. :

Not sure how to tell. One might think two of the three or four newcomers were a hetero couple, but they turn out to be brother and sister,
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Sandy » Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:40 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Having preached in both CBF and SBC churches, I haven't been in one anywhere with a nursery or preschool area bursting at the seams. The bigger problem is that Baptists of all stripes are aging. There are certainly exceptional churches with growing preschool groups, but the absence of evangelism is the real problem in most churches.


But it is easier to blame the "low birthrate" than it is to acknowledge that churches aren't fulfilling one of their Biblical functions. The increasing awareness that American Christians, especially Protestants, were a favored religion by government during the post WW-2 era has led to institutions, particularly schools, forced toward a position of "religious neutrality." If churches and denominational leaders had focused resources on evangelistic outreach and on putting themselves back in the "marketplace of ideas," instead of whining about it, getting involved in extremist right wing politics and building capacious edifices that are monuments to preacher egos that simply gather the flock into larger groups which pool resources to provide services while leaving the vast majority of church members to do nothing but sit, listen and tickle the offering plate, there would be more genuine converts. As it is, within the SBC, the churches aren't even reaching all of the children of their own church members. Mega churches are inwardly focused, and they insulate and isolate people away from relationships where evangelism can take place.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:49 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:Al Mohler is now saying...
How do we know Mohler is "now saying" this, and yet no one has pointed to him "now saying" it? I don't doubt that he believes that, but why is this brought up "now" as Mohler "now saying" this when no one shows him "now saying" it? I'm confused.
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Re: Al Mohler with new family pronouncemen

Postby Sandy » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:23 pm

This is something he has been saying for a long time. I posted one of his earlier blog posts on the subject, from 2006, but many of his past writings and radio commentaries get repeated from time to time, or become one of his speaking or writing themes again, sort of like a "re-run." You'd have to ask Dave for a specific reference to recent remarks but this has been one of his pronouncements and preaching themes for a long time.
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