My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

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My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby William Thornton » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:53 am

Did we witness the return of the so called moderates?

In general the meeting showed moderates within the denomination in ascendancy, particularly on immigration issues. Resolutions were passed that called for more acceptance of immigrants, criticized the separation of families at the border and urged more generous treatment of refugees


Deja vu to you, old friends.
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Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:19 am

Is about to go up on this matter.
Look for it in a couple hours William, It's gonna be a doozey. Your name and Lee SAunders may be in it as well as a reference to SBC Voices and Rotten Theology.

A few minutes ago I was on the Facebook wall of Harvard PHD and Chattanooga bred Baptist Marie Griffith encouraging her to share my thoughts with Jon Meacham, Bush eulogist and biographer. We are about to get all the chickens home to roost.

Let's stay in touch and you counterblog as well cause somebody must get word to Jerry Vines and I am convinced he thinks more highly of you than he does me after our incident in 88 when he came over from Georgia to Roy Moore's church outside Gadsden.
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I just made a post and linked my blog at JD Grear

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:15 am

Facebook wall.

Will see where it goes.

Also shared my blog with Marie Griffith who was written about the Parkland shooting as the faultline in america's faith community. Will see if that resonates with the new SBC president as framed in my blog. For certain if he takes up my reading list, he will end this year knowing more than he did say, last week.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Haruo » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:37 pm

Thanks, William. Lots of mixed signals. But clearly "moderates" in SBC context doesn't mean the same thing it did in 1979. Of course, neither does anything else. Times have changed, and language with them. But it was heartening to see the moderate stance taken in resolutions on immigration and immigrants. I wonder if Trump took offense when Pence told the pastors in attendance that their pulpits and ministries were more significant that any that he or Trump might occupy or engage in.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:51 pm

Glad to hear of resolutions on immigration. Fellow Methodist Jeff Sessions is not too well liked right now by many of the rest of the UMC. Our Bishops released a statement this week calling for the ending of snatching children from their parents at the border. Sessions is actually in violation of the UMC Social Principles.

I’ve heard that some United Methodists are considering filing ecclesiastical charges against him. Lay people can be charged with violating the Discipline but seldom are and usually just leave the Church rather than be tried. So the act would be largely symbolic as a statement of extreme disapproval. Sessions seeking to use the Bible to argue for child imprisonment is not playing well in many Christian circles.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Sandy » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:57 am

An interesting choice of terms, there. Moderate in a secular political sense, perhaps. Theologically, maybe in that there is clearly a segment of the SBC that is a little bit further to the left than the complementarian leadership, or at least, the complementarian old guard.

Seems like what prompted the use of the term was what I would call a surprising negative reaction to the self-initiated campaign stump appearance of the VP. Trump's only real core constituency left is White Evangelicals. Lots of those in the SBC, clearly, white, from the South, past 60. But I've also seen reports, and heard from a friend who was there, that the minority representation was larger than usual, which would probably be expected in Dallas, in a state where the Latino and African American fellowship groups in the state conventions are larger than most state conventions outside the South. So while the SBC is an Evangelical denomination, it is not an all-white Evangelical denomination, and when you put Latinos, African Americans, and Asians into the mix, the percentage of Trump supporters falls quickly.

Christian denominations don't always work smoothly on a system of "majority rules." The older white crowd is still the majority, but it is certainly not the future.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:14 am

Sandy wrote:Christian denominations don't always work smoothly on a system of "majority rules." The older white crowd is still the majority, but it is certainly not the future.


Agreed. And that is what seems to me to cause all the fear about immigration. Deep down white Americans are fearful of not being the majority.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Haruo » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:28 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:Christian denominations don't always work smoothly on a system of "majority rules." The older white crowd is still the majority, but it is certainly not the future.


Agreed. And that is what seems to me to cause all the fear about immigration. Deep down white Americans are fearful of not being the majority.

Evergreen Region works on consensus, and the ethnic caucuses (Black, Hispanic, Asian, Euro) all have to assent to do anything as a Region.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:53 pm

Haruo wrote:Evergreen Region works on consensus, and the ethnic caucuses (Black, Hispanic, Asian, Euro) all have to assent to do anything as a Region.


It is a cool idea. How does it work in practice. If one ethnic group is smaller than another do they get the same vote? Just curious.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Haruo » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:29 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Haruo wrote:Evergreen Region works on consensus, and the ethnic caucuses (Black, Hispanic, Asian, Euro) all have to assent to do anything as a Region.


It is a cool idea. How does it work in practice. If one ethnic group is smaller than another do they get the same vote? Just curious.

I think Marcia Patton has a book out where she details the way it has worked thus far. But I haven't read it. But yes, each caucus has an equal vote, or what really amounts to a veto right, at the critical point. And chairmanships etc. cycle around the caucuses. It isn't a perfect system, but it does drastically reduce the potential for Old White Male cliquishness.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Haruo » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:32 pm

I think it helps that our Executive Minister ab initio was a woman, and that she has now retired and left her job to an Hispanic male, is helpful.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:36 pm

Haruo wrote:I think it helps that our Executive Minister ab initio was a woman, and that she has now retired and left her job to an Hispanic male, is helpful.


It is a unique concept. I’m afraid that the UMC in my conference is too monocultural to make that possible. In Iowa our ethnic diversity in the UMC is between Swedes, Norwegians, and Irish. It isn’t that we don’t have Latino or black members. But it is a very anglo state and United Methodists are less ethnically diverse than I wish we were.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:02 pm

Haruo wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:Christian denominations don't always work smoothly on a system of "majority rules." The older white crowd is still the majority, but it is certainly not the future.


Agreed. And that is what seems to me to cause all the fear about immigration. Deep down white Americans are fearful of not being the majority.

Evergreen Region works on consensus, and the ethnic caucuses (Black, Hispanic, Asian, Euro) all have to assent to do anything as a Region.


Ed: Haruo, of what fear of immigration are you speaking. I personally do not fear legal immigration nor do I know any one who does. I and many I know are however concerned about the threat to the economy of the U.S. posed by an influx of illegal immigrants.

And by the way my friend you are no longer in the younger white set. TIC

While I have no argument with Evergreen's consensus system I note that other regions in the ABC haven't found it tempting enough to follow suite.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Haruo » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:34 pm

Ed, I think you are writing as if I had written the words you ascribed correctly to Sandy and Tim, as well as my own. I didn't say anything about fear of immigrants, nor about the age of white male Baptists.

I'm not surprised that the consensus model hasn't caught on. And only part of the reason, I imagine, is related to entrenched white power issues.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:30 am

Haruo wrote:Ed, I think you are writing as if I had written the words you ascribed correctly to Sandy and Tim, as well as my own. I didn't say anything about fear of immigrants, nor about the age of white male Baptists.

I'm not surprised that the consensus model hasn't caught on. And only part of the reason, I imagine, is related to entrenched white power issues.


Ed: So Hauro why has it not caught on in Korean, Chinese,or Black churches ?
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Haruo » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:52 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:Ed, I think you are writing as if I had written the words you ascribed correctly to Sandy and Tim, as well as my own. I didn't say anything about fear of immigrants, nor about the age of white male Baptists.

I'm not surprised that the consensus model hasn't caught on. And only part of the reason, I imagine, is related to entrenched white power issues.


Ed: So Hauro why has it not caught on in Korean, Chinese,or Black churches ?

I have very little experience with Korean or Chinese churches. I know that Chinese Baptist of Seattle decided not to join Evergreen because its then (Euro) pastor told them that it was part of the gay conspiracy or agenda or whatever. They cooperate closely with Evergreen now. As for Black churches, my impression is that it is a popular system among the Black churches in Evergreen. It has certainly contributed to their empowerment, and they are not unconscious of this.

My suspicion is that most churches don't glom onto it either because (a) they think it will cost them or their pastor/elders their power, or (b) they have never heard of it in any serious vein, or (c) they are afraid it will result in paralysis and inaction. But I don't know. I certainly don't set myself up as an expert on why churches I have never attended do or don't adopt certain models of governance.
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Re: My mod/lib friends might appreciate this about SBC18

Postby Haruo » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:55 pm

I went to my first Korean church service yesterday. It was fun. I was the only non-Korean and the only non-Korean-speaking person present. A bunch of good praise songs (with the music on the screen! yay!) and my first chance to try to sing "Softly and tenderly" in Korean.
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