Patterson discussion

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Patterson discussion

Postby Sandy » Mon May 07, 2018 9:31 pm

http://sbcvoices.com/a-few-words-about- ... rson-saga/

Paige Patterson is giving the annual sermon at the SBC in June, and his selection created a firestorm of comment about remarks he made more than a decade ago which were controversial related to the submission of women being abused by their husbands.

I do not understand how it is that there is no one within this denomination who can step up and prevent it from embarassing itself and making itself look like a bunch of ignorant hicks.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Rvaughn » Mon May 07, 2018 10:45 pm

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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby William Thornton » Tue May 08, 2018 4:50 am

Sandy wrote:http://sbcvoices.com/a-few-words-about-the-patterson-saga/

Paige Patterson is giving the annual sermon at the SBC in June, and his selection created a firestorm of comment about remarks he made more than a decade ago which were controversial related to the submission of women being abused by their husbands.

I do not understand how it is that there is no one within this denomination who can step up and prevent it from embarassing itself and making itself look like a bunch of ignorant hicks.


Frank Page would have been a candidate to mediate but he's out. Name a respected SBC statesman these days. Not that there aren't good and decent people but none with elevated stature among their peers. There are the megapastors. Gaines is pretty tight lipped. His wife even says she can't defend PP's words.

It can't be good when a denominational spokesman is explaining how the convention can remove the preacher of the convention sermon, not is it a positive if that person feels compelled to state that he has never personally abused women.

SWBTS trustees are meeting, at PP's request,on May 22nd.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue May 08, 2018 5:29 am

Is there another job like Ken Hemphill's at the SBC Executive Committee. If so, transfer PP.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby William Thornton » Tue May 08, 2018 7:21 am

Dave Roberts wrote:Is there another job like Ken Hemphill's at the SBC Executive Committee. If so, transfer PP.


FP got rid of the sinecures at the EC. They're building PP a retirement place on campus.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby JE Pettibone » Tue May 08, 2018 8:02 am

William Thornton wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Is there another job like Ken Hemphill's at the SBC Executive Committee. If so, transfer PP.


FP got rid of the sinecures at the EC. They're building PP a retirement place on campus.


Ed: William, do you think the "retirement place" may be what prompted the flack about an old sermon he had delivered?
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Sandy » Tue May 08, 2018 8:07 am

William Thornton wrote:They're building PP a retirement place on campus.


That ought to help keep CP contributions increasing. ;-)
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Haruo » Tue May 08, 2018 9:48 am

I keep reading that there are a lot of younger SBC pastors who think Patterson is even closer to the right hand of God than Trump is. But so far all the blog posts and position statements I'm seeing about this particular controversy (or is it two, the statements about abused women and the invitation to preach at the convention?) are anti-Patterson or extremely neutral. Is there an articulate writer in the actively pro-Patterson (and pro-abused-wives-should-stay-until-it's-time-to-go-to-the-hospital) camp?
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby William Thornton » Tue May 08, 2018 11:04 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
William Thornton wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Is there another job like Ken Hemphill's at the SBC Executive Committee. If so, transfer PP.


FP got rid of the sinecures at the EC. They're building PP a retirement place on campus.


Ed: William, do you think the "retirement place" may be what prompted the flack about an old sermon he had delivered?


No idea. There are any number of folks who have grudges against PP. The trustees will meet in a couple of weeks. I don't think all are happy.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby William Thornton » Tue May 08, 2018 11:09 am

Haruo wrote:I keep reading that there are a lot of younger SBC pastors who think Patterson is even closer to the right hand of God than Trump is. But so far all the blog posts and position statements I'm seeing about this particular controversy (or is it two, the statements about abused women and the invitation to preach at the convention?) are anti-Patterson or extremely neutral. Is there an articulate writer in the actively pro-Patterson (and pro-abused-wives-should-stay-until-it's-time-to-go-to-the-hospital) camp?


I'm thinking that the younger SBC crowd are the opposite...think it's time to move on.

I like PP. He is a compelling speaker and has done important work. He's 75. It's time for a generational change in many places. The most effusive pro-P have been folks on the payroll but he's like Hil - lots of diehard supporters and opponents.

On the two black eye story. I've heard that one and others similar over the years. It's old school and the point of some of these is to impress on pastor/counselors/spouses that if you suffer in silence God will straighten it all out and there will be a happily-ever-after result. One notes that, universally in SBC circles now, abused spouses are not told to do this and abusers are to be reported.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Rvaughn » Tue May 08, 2018 12:43 pm

Haruo wrote:I keep reading that there are a lot of younger SBC pastors who think Patterson is even closer to the right hand of God than Trump is. But so far all the blog posts and position statements I'm seeing about this particular controversy (or is it two, the statements about abused women and the invitation to preach at the convention?) are anti-Patterson or extremely neutral. Is there an articulate writer in the actively pro-Patterson (and pro-abused-wives-should-stay-until-it's-time-to-go-to-the-hospital) camp?
Look for anything about Paige Patterson on SBC Today. You can judge for yourself about the articulate part (I think some of it is), but you can be sure it will be "actively pro-Patterson" -- including most (but not all) of the comments as well. Here's some, probably most of the recent ones:
http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/beth-moore-paige-patterson-and-the-bible/
http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/the-right-thing-for-the-sbc-and-paige-patterson/
http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/dr-paige-patterson-will-go-too-far-this-time/
http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/paige-patterson-the-way-forward/
http://sbctoday.wpengine.com/biblical-inerrantist-believes-bible/
I'm not a Southern Baptist, and not that much of a Paige Patterson fan. Theologically I am closer to him than I am to most of you here at Baptist Life. From the view in the cheap seats, though, this appears to be more about taking down Paige Patterson than it is protecting about abused women. I think those who want to take him down think the time is now. The climate is right. (For an example, nearly every one of the blog posts that one of the players, Ben Cole, has posted since he reengaged blogging in June of last year is something negative regarding Patterson/Southwestern/SBC.)

Leland, you might also find Dwight McKissic's Harboring Conflicting Emotions Regarding Paige Patterson’s Counsel on Spousal Abuse and the Resulting Implications (also linked above) surprisingly positive for one who has had his share of run-ins with Paige Patterson.
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JonaTHAN merritt and Sfox on Paige and the bigger picture

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue May 08, 2018 2:17 pm

I am disappointed Jerry Vines has not gotten word to William Thornton, nor SBC Voices on Jonathan Merritt's piece in the Atlantic about Paige.

Most of you Know Jonathan's Dad James is recent president of the SBC.

I put the whole swamp in New Yorker Perspective at my blog with a link to the Atlantic Piece. Several folks at Furman have read my blog and find it "superb"

Looking to see what religion dispatches does with Paige.

I called FBC Gardendale, Gaines foremer haunt this morning and let them know about the Atlantic piece.

Rick Burgess needs to know too.

Get the full story on my blog and by all means link to SBC Voices.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Sandy » Wed May 09, 2018 8:02 am

I've never seen William drop Jerry Vines' name here, and wasn't aware that he knew him personally. Have you been holding out on us, William?

Patterson was never really a unifying figure in the SBC, even among conservatives. He and Pressler came to the surface in response to years of frustration over denominational leadership being so tightly wound around an elitist, closed group of denominational bureaucrats, and used theological controversy that was always bubbling below the surface, and the natural distrust of many Baptists in the pew, to launch a movement that resonated with a majority of Southern Baptists. They were able to develop a strategy that was sustainable in terms of messenger support long enough to navigate through a system of trustee appointment that was purposefully designed around clannish exclusivity and for lack of a better way to describe it, Southern backwardness.

Patterson is, perhaps, the only true "Fundamentalist" in the leadership of the Conservative Resurgence. It wasn't so much his theology that was needed as it was his bullying and pushiness, and willingness to openly challenge opposition, go outside the accepted lines to gain support and get things to happen, and having his fingers in every pie. Pressler was a former Presbyterian, and a member of churches in Houston that are clearly conservative, but not fundamentalist in the way that Patterson is. He was only interested in the personal prominence and power necessary to orchestrate change. He might have been uncomfortable with some of the more liberal views coming out of Baylor, as he claimed, but if Baylor University was the culprit, why take over the SBC to change it, since Baylor isn't an SBC institution?

The way the SBC was structured, and still is for the most part, made their methods necessary to make changes. Patterson was always a lightning rod, always prone to open his mouth and insert both feet at times, and never unanimously popular among conservatives. When the boards had been turned, and the moderates realized they did not have the means or anywhere near the support to reverse anything, Patterson and Pressler should have backed away, instead of getting involved in the board rotation, and collecting spoils for their personal prominence. They've been given far more power and far more accolades than anything they did has deserved, and their continued presence, and the way some Southern Baptists follow them around with toilet paper and tissues, is an embarassment to the denomination. Noting that those who keep bringing these things up and who are part of the group Patterson accuses of being out to get him are also conservatives who were part of the resurgence movement says that their time to make speeches and get standing ovations was over long ago.

At an SBC meeting I attended about a decade ago, when Patterson got up to make his seminary report, which turned out to be a campaign speech against David Rogers who was running for FVP, a guy sitting next to me complained that when he was done, we'd have to stand. I said I wasn't going to, and after a glance that made me think I had horns and a tail, when the speech was over, the only people who stood were the handful of Southwestern students in the back of the room.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby William Thornton » Wed May 09, 2018 8:39 am

JE Pettibone wrote:
William Thornton wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Is there another job like Ken Hemphill's at the SBC Executive Committee. If so, transfer PP.


FP got rid of the sinecures at the EC. They're building PP a retirement place on campus.


Ed: William, do you think the "retirement place" may be what prompted the flack about an old sermon he had delivered?


I wouldn't think so.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby William Thornton » Wed May 09, 2018 8:41 am

I've never met Jerry Vines. Don't know him personally. That's Fox baiting the rest of you. Looks like I'll have to go back to deleting his nonsense if he keeps this junk up.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Sandy » Wed May 09, 2018 2:46 pm

Here's your Patheos article, Stephen, so you don't have to find it. Its not by Molly Marshall or Marshall Frady, or Molly Worthen, but it's by Roger Olsen.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolso ... r-spouses/

And another, perhaps more progressive perspective.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/irreverin/ ... content=43
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Vines and Patterson and a "built" woman; Hebrew banah

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri May 11, 2018 1:30 pm

In his apology, Patterson wrote that that “pastoral ministry” took place 54 years ago and was repeated in sermons on more than one occasion. He said he used it as an illustration to try to explain a Hebrew word banah, “build or construct,” to explain the biblical passage Genesis 2:22, which states: “And the Lord God fashioned the rib that he had taken from the man into a woman; and he brought her to the man.”


The above is a quote from May 10 Sarah Pulliam Bailey article in the Wash Post brought to my attention by a former president of a historically Baptist related university driven from Baptist ranks by fundamentalist cancer within the SBC that metastasized about 1990.

On at least one occasion and likely more than that Jerry Vines has engaged a Thornton blog post in the affirmative or otherwise made an affirmation of Dr. Thornton's "insights".

Sandy, just when I thought you were making sense in some threads you come up with this almost total fiction about Patterson's role in the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist convention. I can't say that I'm heartbroken, but I am grieved, disappointed.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Paige is apologizing, I'm sure you've gotten word by now.

As one progressive told me this morning, Me Too Screwed Us All!!! lol
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SEBTS, Akin and Patterson in Wash Post

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue May 22, 2018 8:34 pm

latest went up this afternoon May 22. Now SEBTS is in play, 2003 they year Paige matriculated from Jesse Helms back to Texas with the Hunt Bircher Brothers and Pressler the Texas Regular Sodomite

For yall on facebook Sarah Pulliam Bailey of Wheaton and Wash Post is active today including background information from yours truly

https://www.facebook.com/sarahpulliambailey
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Haruo » Tue May 22, 2018 10:35 pm

Moseley sounds very bad.

But what I worry about most is the rapist's current situation. Is he still doing this sort of thing? Is he an active, ordained minister of the gospel?
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby William Thornton » Wed May 23, 2018 4:15 am

This is appalling and fatal to PP in my view. Whereas I thought his apologies for earlier difficulties were sufficient to permit his continued service, including delivering the convention sermon in three weeks, this latest mess ends all that. A student reported a rape. She is appeared before several men and had to recount the details. She was pressured not to report to authorities and to forgive, and was placed on probation by the school. No word on consequences to the male student. The male student later (years) reached out to his victim and asked for forgiveness. She forgave him.

No way PP can be honored by preaching the convention sermon and likely getting a standing ovation. We wouldn't leave Dallas with a shred of credibility in the public eye.

Rabid PP supporters blame the victim, the messengers, the timing and some in the most unchristian manner. Disgusting.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby KeithE » Wed May 23, 2018 5:52 am

William Thornton wrote:This is appalling and fatal to PP in my view. Whereas I thought his apologies for earlier difficulties were sufficient to permit his continued service, including delivering the convention sermon in three weeks, this latest mess ends all that. A student reported a rape. She is appeared before several men and had to recount the details. She was pressured not to report to authorities and to forgive, and was placed on probation by the school. No word on consequences to the male student. The male student later (years) reached out to his victim and asked for forgiveness. She forgave him.

No way PP can be honored by preaching the convention sermon and likely getting a standing ovation. We wouldn't leave Dallas with a shred of credibility in the public eye.

Rabid PP supporters blame the victim, the messengers, the timing and some in the most unchristian manner. Disgusting.

Amen! And Takeover-friendly SBCers should be hanging their heads for their failure to see the long term disgusting advice/behavior of their co-founders (Paige Patterson/Paul Pressler respectively) for decades.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed May 23, 2018 7:08 am

I heard on NPR just a few minutes ago that Patterson is out. The thing that struck me, if accurate was that SWBTS was described as a 1,200-student school. Didn't it once have 2,500 students (by FTE counts)? Patterson, in his advise to a raped young woman obviously broke the laws of Texas. Rape is a crime, period!
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Rvaughn » Wed May 23, 2018 8:29 am

Dave Roberts wrote:I heard on NPR just a few minutes ago that Patterson is out.
That's correct, out as president:
Patterson appointed President Emeritus at SWBTS, effective immediately
Dave Roberts wrote:The thing that struck me, if accurate was that SWBTS was described as a 1,200-student school. Didn't it once have 2,500 students (by FTE counts)?
William can probably speak well to this. Last fall he wrote about some of that at SBC Voices:
Southwestern Seminary cuts 10% of their full time positions
Dave Roberts wrote:Patterson, in his advise to a raped young woman obviously broke the laws of Texas. Rape is a crime, period!
Rape is a crime, but Texas law, in this case, has no importance or relation. The rape, non-disclosure, etc., that is being discussed occurred at Southeastern Seminary in North Carolina.
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Re: Patterson discussion

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed May 23, 2018 10:20 am

I don't know about 2003, but current NC statutes do have a reporting responsibility for educational administrators who receive allegations of rape.

Patterson's forced retirement is strange--title, place to live, opportunity to have an office on the campus, and continuing salary and benefits. Things have certainly changed since Russell Dilday was locked out of his own office for displeasing the board. Is there a double standard of how to treat fellow Christians at SWBTS?
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