Frank Page

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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:19 am

Jim wrote:In other words, he fessed-up only after he'd been caught, a true act of grace and humility, and probably lied about his move to South Carolina. The real in-your-face to his interim pastorate was even being there on Sunday. All the sweet, kind words of support from his colleagues are sickening. He's earned the scorn and ought to be allowed to wallow in it for a while and read his own sermons on the subject of unfaithfulness. Disgusting!


Jim - You make assumptions as to why he resigned and his move to SC and more. Please try and speak of fact instead of opinion when you deal with a fellow Christian. I could care less if you are disgusted. With this tragic sin in his life - it does not erase the good he had done the many years prior. The souls he led to Christ are still forever saved. The Men who surrendered to preach under his ministry are still called out.

Throwing stones does not demonstrate Jesus at all. If you want perfection you will be forever waiting. If you can't forgive you will not be forgiven. He has stepped away from ministry - preaching - exposure and is working on his marriage and family. I hope all Christians who fail God will not have their fellow saints cry - crucify him.

If I were his pastor or interim pastor, I would have welcomed him into the church. I would have hugged him and told him he was loved and that in Christ there is, therefore, no condemnation and he will not get it from me. I would make myself available to help. I would not kick him because he sinned, I would hope my fellow Christians would not kick me when I do.

There are some things which are disgusting and what you wrote is square in the middle of that category.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:02 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Jim wrote:In other words, he fessed-up only after he'd been caught, a true act of grace and humility, and probably lied about his move to South Carolina. The real in-your-face to his interim pastorate was even being there on Sunday. All the sweet, kind words of support from his colleagues are sickening. He's earned the scorn and ought to be allowed to wallow in it for a while and read his own sermons on the subject of unfaithfulness. Disgusting!


Jim - You make assumptions as to why he resigned and his move to SC and more. Please try and speak of fact instead of opinion when you deal with a fellow Christian. I could care less if you are disgusted. With this tragic sin in his life - it does not erase the good he had done the many years prior. The souls he led to Christ are still forever saved. The Men who surrendered to preach under his ministry are still called out.

Throwing stones does not demonstrate Jesus at all. If you want perfection you will be forever waiting. If you can't forgive you will not be forgiven. He has stepped away from ministry - preaching - exposure and is working on his marriage and family. I hope all Christians who fail God will not have their fellow saints cry - crucify him.

If I were his pastor or interim pastor, I would have welcomed him into the church. I would have hugged him and told him he was loved and that in Christ there is, therefore, no condemnation and he will not get it from me. I would make myself available to help. I would not kick him because he sinned, I would hope my fellow Christians would not kick me when I do.

There are some things which are disgusting and what you wrote is square in the middle of that category.

Gimme a break. I was on the church staff when my pastor did the same thing (assuming he played Adam to some woman's Eve, but it could have been pedophilia or maybe embezzlement). I saw this stuff up close and personal and cut the guy no slack. It hurt a lot and made a laughing-stock of the faith/church. Think of the souls he might have turned away as well as the ones you say he saved (although God had his part). Christ said it would have been better if he had a millstone tied around his neck and then dropped off the yacht at Myrtle Beach at high tide. God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead, no second chances, for even less, to say nothing of what he did to David account his “indiscretion.” James said teachers will be judged more strictly but that they can be forgiven if they repent – no argument with that, but your soppy approach to hugging him and welcoming him back is political correctness, not by way of the judgment of God and Jesus Christ, who even referred to Peter as Satan because he was out of line, and denounced the Sodomites in no uncertain terms in Matthew 11 as he pronounced dire judgment on guilty communities. Page stepped away from ministry because he was about to be exposed but had the gall to keep preaching anyway and made a laughing stock of his interim congregation. I don't worry about forgiving Page because forgiveness is up to God, not me. Your use of the word crucify trivializes what Christ did accruing to today's activities. You're thinking of poor dear Frank but I'm thinking of his family, his position as head of the second largest denomination in the U.S., and the faith. I worked a lot of years as a railroad engineer and listened to my red-neck colleagues pour venom on a church deacon because of his hanky-panky at the other end of then line. So...I'm a hard-hearted, un-loving believer. So be it. I'll take that instead of being a simpering warm-fuzzy “nice guy.” Jesus called the teachers of his day stinking tombs. Maybe you'll remind Page of that.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Sun Apr 01, 2018 8:23 am

John 8:7.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:17 am

Sandy wrote:John 8:7.

The objective in that case was death, so your using it as an analogy concerning poor Frank's peccadilloes is roughly worth warm spit into a strong wind so think of another scripture, especially if you're standing at the metaphorical ship's railing.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:31 pm

I started this thread because I consider Frank a friend, even if our friendship as fellow pastors in Fayetteville was 30 years ago. I do not condone whatever he has done, but he still needs our prayers in whatever lies ahead in his life.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:02 am

Jim wrote:Gimme a break.

NO.

I was on the church staff when my pastor did the same thing (assuming he played Adam to some woman's Eve, but it could have been pedophilia or maybe embezzlement). I saw this stuff up close and personal and cut the guy no slack. It hurt a lot and made a laughing-stock of the faith/church.

Most all of us on this forum have been in situations where failures have occurred. What we all should know is that each situation is different and we need to address what we know to be true, not what we add to the story. No one here is condoning what FP did... not in any form or fashion. What I do see happening is loving the sinner who has repented )and there is no indication he repented because he got caught. The opposite has been reported by FP and the EC chair. To say differently is to add to a story an element you want to be true but have no bases upon which to make it so.

Think of the souls he might have turned away as well as the ones you say he saved (although God had his part).

Such is true for all of us who do are not perfect in our lives. Bitterness and not contentment in Christ can turn people away. Anger and not grace can turn people away. I do hope you do not witness to lost people with as much attitude I read in your typed words. If you do, I would not want what you are offering. You are capitalizing on a sin, not the Savior.

Christ said it would have been better if he had a millstone tied around his neck and then dropped off the yacht at Myrtle Beach at high tide.

His repentive spirit cancels such.

God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead, no second chances, for even less, to say nothing of what he did to David account his “indiscretion.” James said teachers will be judged more strictly but that they can be forgiven if they repent – no argument with that, but your soppy approach to hugging him and welcoming him back is political correctness, not by way of the judgment of God and Jesus Christ, who even referred to Peter as Satan because he was out of line, and denounced the Sodomites in no uncertain terms in Matthew 11 as he pronounced dire judgment on guilty communities.

His repentive spirit cancels such.

Page stepped away from ministry because he was about to be exposed but had the gall to keep preaching anyway and made a laughing stock of his interim congregation.

Please provide a reeference for this accusation.

I don't worry about forgiving Page because forgiveness is up to God, not me.

Forgiveness is in God's hands but judgment is in yours. Hmmmm --- interesting.

Your use of the word crucify trivializes what Christ did accruing to today's activities. You're thinking of poor dear Frank but I'm thinking of his family, his position as head of the second largest denomination in the U.S., and the faith.

You have no idea how far my thinking reaches in my desire to express the love and hope of Christ in and through tis time. Then again, you are showing yourself to be good at suppositions.

I worked a lot of years as a railroad engineer and listened to my red-neck colleagues pour venom on a church deacon because of his hanky-panky at the other end of then line. So...I'm a hard-hearted, un-loving believer. So be it. I'll take that instead of being a simpering warm-fuzzy “nice guy.” Jesus called the teachers of his day stinking tombs. Maybe you'll remind Page of that.

I find no place in scripture where we are called to be a hard-hearted, un-loving believer. Maybe those terms were used when Jesus stooped and wrote in the sand about the accussers.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:10 am

Jim wrote:
Sandy wrote:John 8:7.

The objective in that case was death, so your using it as an analogy concerning poor Frank's peccadilloes is roughly worth warm spit into a strong wind so think of another scripture, especially if you're standing at the metaphorical ship's railing.


It wasn't the woman who is the object of Jesus' rebuke, it was those about to stone her. The circumstances don't change the principle, which Jesus preached elsewhere, including when he spoke about specks and logs. It's all sin, and even if you claim sinless perfection, you're not in a position to judge Frank Page. I'd say Luke 6:41-42 directly applies, death is not the objective, it's just two sinners and the sin isn't the same, since one is a log and one is a speck. If you want to keep at it, you figure out whether your sin is the log or the speck.

Jim wrote:Page stepped away from ministry because he was about to be exposed but had the gall to keep preaching anyway and made a laughing stock of his interim congregation.


The circumstances in the report would indicate that you are wrong on both counts. Looks like he could have retired, stepped away, and no one would have known, but he's the one who decided to take it a step further, and disclose the reason. While I can't judge his spirit, that looks like an action which was promoted by repentance.

I don't see anyone here who isn't sympathetic to everyone else involved, and sick at heart for his family, along with the other person involved, who, btw, is not an innocent victim. There will be consequences he will face from the fact that he was serving the SBC, and a church as its interim.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:11 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:I started this thread because I consider Frank a friend, even if our friendship as fellow pastors in Fayetteville was 30 years ago. I do not condone whatever he has done, but he still needs our prayers in whatever lies ahead in his life.


Also, making no excuses for Rev. Page, but the Church has a long history of throwing people who fail under the bus. We've seen a bit of that in this thread.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:45 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:I started this thread because I consider Frank a friend, even if our friendship as fellow pastors in Fayetteville was 30 years ago. I do not condone whatever he has done, but he still needs our prayers in whatever lies ahead in his life.


Also, making no excuses for Rev. Page, but the Church has a long history of throwing people who fail under the bus. We've seen a bit of that in this thread.


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Re: Frank Page

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:29 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:
As I once heard, "The church is the only army that buries the wounded."


I've heard it, "The church is the only army in the world that executes its own wounded." But, the same general idea.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:31 pm

Actually, I'm too soft-hearted when compared to Jesus, who had a word or two for poor Frank in Matt. 5:27-30. All the sappy gushing about "supporting a poor brother" and hugging him back to church and presumably the strait and narrow is disgusting. He knew exactly what he was doing and did it anyway and in the process besmirched Jesus Christ, the church, his family and the faith in him of a few million Baptists. He needs to twist in the wind for a while and get his brain working again instead of his hormones.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:55 pm

James 4:19-20 I John 1:8-10 Galatians 6:1-5 Romans 15:1 Luke 6:41-42 Matthew 7:1-5

Just a few passages of the New Testament where you can find "sappy gushing."
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:47 am

Jim wrote:Actually, I'm too soft-hearted when compared to Jesus, who had a word or two for poor Frank in Matt. 5:27-30. All the sappy gushing about "supporting a poor brother" and hugging him back to church and presumably the strait and narrow is disgusting. He knew exactly what he was doing and did it anyway and in the process besmirched Jesus Christ, the church, his family and the faith in him of a few million Baptists. He needs to twist in the wind for a while and get his brain working again instead of his hormones.


Jim - Do you have the gift of condemnation?

No one on this forum is condoning FP's sin. Everyone is aware of the damage such an action can cause. What we seem to know that you are missing is that God's judgment is His to give. I have had church members with an attitude much like you are displaying. Their self-righteousness clearly on display to turn the lost away.

As a child of God, FP has stepped away from ministry completely. He has demonstrated repentance and is crying for restoration with God, his family and church. He understands it is a journey and I see nowhere in scripture we are to belittle him and wish the worst for him.

Please tell me where he preached after he confessed - as you accuse him of doing earlier? Please show us where he only repented after being caught... another accusation you make.

Bearing false witness is also a sin my brother.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:50 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Jim wrote:Actually, I'm too soft-hearted when compared to Jesus, who had a word or two for poor Frank in Matt. 5:27-30. All the sappy gushing about "supporting a poor brother" and hugging him back to church and presumably the strait and narrow is disgusting. He knew exactly what he was doing and did it anyway and in the process besmirched Jesus Christ, the church, his family and the faith in him of a few million Baptists. He needs to twist in the wind for a while and get his brain working again instead of his hormones.


Jim - Do you have the gift of condemnation?

Didn't know that's one of the gifts, but I have it, just like you in condemning me.

No one on this forum is condoning FP's sin. Everyone is aware of the damage such an action can cause. What we seem to know that you are missing is that God's judgment is His to give. I have had church members with an attitude much like you are displaying. Their self-righteousness clearly on display to turn the lost away.

Neither am I. So am I. I agree, but I haven't judged anyone. That's God's business. I have opined, just as you have, nothing more. I claim no self-righteousness but you do in judging/condemning me. Shame on you.

As a child of God, FP has stepped away from ministry completely.

As a child of God (your judgment), he has disgraced the ministry.

He has demonstrated repentance and is crying for restoration with God, his family and church. He understands it is a journey and I see nowhere in scripture we are to belittle him and wish the worst for him.

You're assuming all of that but know absolutely nothing about his repentance or journey (if any and to where). You know nothing of his crying, either. Your self-righteousness is glaring.


Bearing false witness is also a sin my brother.


Then ask forgiveness and all will be better, my judge.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Haruo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:45 pm

Might be time for a bit of disengagement here?
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Haruo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:51 pm

But first, Jim, before you disengage, answer the questions that you skipped, the ones that raised the issue of false witness. Please.
Jon wrote:Please tell me where he preached after he confessed - as you accuse him of doing earlier? Please show us where he only repented after being caught... another accusation you make.

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:40 pm

In spite of some of the rhetoric that has been put up here, the expectation of a Christ-like response to Page's retirement and confession involves grace and forgiveness, not judgement, condemnation and "twisting in the wind."

For the executive board, and the SBC, forgiveness will be the most important element of healing. Matthew 18:35 speaks directly to this. Whether that's the equivalent of "sappy gushing" or not, Jesus is pretty clear about what happens when there's no mercy.

Southern Baptists seems to have a lot of things going on right now, with the "traditionalist" vs "Calvinist" controversy, declining membership, attendance, and finances. A hard-line, unforgiving attitude toward a fallen leader will make things worse.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:24 pm

Jim wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Jim wrote:Actually, I'm too soft-hearted when compared to Jesus, who had a word or two for poor Frank in Matt. 5:27-30. All the sappy gushing about "supporting a poor brother" and hugging him back to church and presumably the strait and narrow is disgusting. He knew exactly what he was doing and did it anyway and in the process besmirched Jesus Christ, the church, his family and the faith in him of a few million Baptists. He needs to twist in the wind for a while and get his brain working again instead of his hormones.


Jim - Do you have the gift of condemnation?

Didn't know that's one of the gifts, but I have it, just like you in condemning me.

No one on this forum is condoning FP's sin. Everyone is aware of the damage such an action can cause. What we seem to know that you are missing is that God's judgment is His to give. I have had church members with an attitude much like you are displaying. Their self-righteousness clearly on display to turn the lost away.

Neither am I. So am I. I agree, but I haven't judged anyone. That's God's business. I have opined, just as you have, nothing more. I claim no self-righteousness but you do in judging/condemning me. Shame on you.

As a child of God, FP has stepped away from ministry completely.

As a child of God (your judgment), he has disgraced the ministry.

He has demonstrated repentance and is crying for restoration with God, his family and church. He understands it is a journey and I see nowhere in scripture we are to belittle him and wish the worst for him.

You're assuming all of that but know absolutely nothing about his repentance or journey (if any and to where). You know nothing of his crying, either. Your self-righteousness is glaring.


Bearing false witness is also a sin my brother.


Then ask forgiveness and all will be better, my judge.


Jim, Here is the difference in my comments and yours... I am speaking to you, not just out there about you. I am engaging you where you make your accusations... the forum you chose to smear FP. Correct me if I am wrong, I’m here and it can be done. Your avoidance of two simple questions I have asked is telling.

Be truthful... provide evidence of the accusations you make... claiming you were opining now is weak. You wrote in a manner which directly accused FP. I think you know the difference between opinion and accusation.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:44 am

JE Pettibone wrote:There is neither Liberal or Fundamentalist in that statement.


Ed, the forum and I aren’t the same thing. :wink:

I don’t value fundamentalism or extremism either on the far left or the far right. Christian extremism is one of the biggest problems the Church has today bolstered by politicians who are sucking up to and supporting Christian extremism. Right now the extremism that is ruling the day is largely right wing Christian extremism. I don’t plan to back off from my views, since the SBC takeover nearly 40 years ago, that fundamentalism isn’t mainstream Christianity, is bad for the Church, Christians and our country.

If you, now far down the road from the SBC, want to now feel good about being open minded about fundamentalism, that is fine by me. But, I’ve not changed my views of fundamentalism since the 1980s and don’t plan to.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:52 pm

This is the beginning of the article that started this brouhaha:

Page, 65, announced Tuesday morning on social media that he was retiring from his position as president and CEO of the Executive Committee, which he assumed in 2010.
“Many months ago, my daughters shared their deep desire for Dayle and me to retire and move closer to them in South Carolina so that we might spend more time with them and their families — especially our grandchildren,” Page, former pastor of First Baptist Church in Taylors, S.C., said in comments reported by Baptist Press. “After much prayer and conversation, we have chosen to make this decision.”
Later in the day, the official denominational news service overseen by the Executive Committee revealed more to the story.
Executive Committee Chairman Stephen Rummage said after speaking with Page, he “learned that his retirement announcement was precipitated by a morally inappropriate relationship in the recent past.”


This is the end of the article:

Page has been serving on weekends since Feb. 4 as interim lead pastor at Hebron Baptist Church in Dacula, Ga. On Tuesday church leaders announced March 25 was Page’s last day.


In other words, he was fired retroactively after his peccadilloes became known, his last appearance while he still had the gall to take to the pulpit under the seamy circumstances. Shed no tears for poor Frank. Making as a reason for moving away what obviously was a lie doesn't help, either.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:30 pm

I see nothing there to indicate that Page was fired, particularly not "after the fact." Clearly he volunteered the information to the executive board chair, they didn't force his confession or his updated version of events. Also nothing to indicate that he intended to go past where the church suggested he step down. I'm just wondering where all of this hateful spew from Jim is coming from.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:23 pm

As Jesus said to Saul after getting his attention by gently striking him blind and giving him a big hug vis-a-vis his breaking of the Ten Commandments, though murder wasn't really all that bad, “It's hard to kick against the pricks.” Ah yes...when the message is en pointe, the messenger is to be given a hard dose of ad hominem syrup. I'm accustomed to that. Oh well, Frank didn't kill anyone or hunt down Christians like Saul did. He merely climbed to the top rung and instead of falling therefrom he just jumped. I'm still laughing, not at poor Frank, but at all the crap in this thread meant to either turn him into a repentant saint, though only God knows about that, or someone badly needing “understanding.” He simply spit in Christ's face with his admitted immorality and disgraced both his position and his witness, if any. None of us is perfect—especially including me—but should not be pandered-to or treated with kid gloves by folks who are just so disgustingly understanding and supportive. Frank doesn't need support...he needs a kick in the derriere just as any of us deserves when making sport of the faith. God will not be mocked.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Haruo » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:41 pm

Jim wrote:This is the beginning of the article that started this brouhaha:

Page, 65, announced Tuesday morning on social media that he was retiring from his position as president and CEO of the Executive Committee, which he assumed in 2010.
“Many months ago, my daughters shared their deep desire for Dayle and me to retire and move closer to them in South Carolina so that we might spend more time with them and their families — especially our grandchildren,” Page, former pastor of First Baptist Church in Taylors, S.C., said in comments reported by Baptist Press. “After much prayer and conversation, we have chosen to make this decision.”
Later in the day, the official denominational news service overseen by the Executive Committee revealed more to the story.
Executive Committee Chairman Stephen Rummage said after speaking with Page, he “learned that his retirement announcement was precipitated by a morally inappropriate relationship in the recent past.”


This is the end of the article:

Page has been serving on weekends since Feb. 4 as interim lead pastor at Hebron Baptist Church in Dacula, Ga. On Tuesday church leaders announced March 25 was Page’s last day.


In other words, he was fired retroactively after his peccadilloes became known, his last appearance while he still had the gall to take to the pulpit under the seamy circumstances. Shed no tears for poor Frank. Making as a reason for moving away what obviously was a lie doesn't help, either.

Well, I still have no idea when Page became aware that the relationship in question was inappropriate, nor when or if he repented of it, nor whether inappropriate necessarily subsumes sinful.

But on the preaching after the matter came to light or whatever, Jim appears to be in the right.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:25 pm

Haruo wrote:But on the preaching after the matter came to light or whatever, Jim appears to be in the right.


I don't see anything in this media description of the events that says anything about how his last service as interim at the church went or what they said or did. If they knew why he was stepping down, and determined the March 25th day as his last, that's their decision, and their business. This is a media description of events that none of us witnessed. From the way they've reported it, he initially decided to announce his retirement, and then at some point decided that providing the reason for it was a necessary step toward repentance, and decided to include the reason in his statement to the executive board.

There is not any Biblical support whatsoever to support a judgmental, hateful attitude toward Frank Page. Jesus said things like "Let he who is without sin throw the first stoe," and "seventy times seven," and weight mercy and grace in much heavier portions than judgmental self-righteousness. These are media reports. None of us were there to hear how the church addressed Page as their interim pastor, or how the SBC reacted to his news, so any of that conversation is just speculation. Jesus didn's pass along the authority to take his place when rendering judgement or reacting to it.

If you hate things like repentance, forgiveness, loving and supporting sinners back to restoration, and all of that "warm, fuzzy, gushy" stuff, then you need to put your Bible in a box, stash it in the basement, and get out of the church.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:33 pm

For the folks suffering a severe case of denial, though one supposes enough time has been wasted on poor, dear Frank:

News source: Baptist News Global
Page resignation date: 27 March
Article date: 28 March
Interim date: full months of February, March
last sermon date, presumably: 25 March
Interim firing date: 27 March, effective 25 March

Question: Should the interim church pay Frank for two days?
Jim
 
Posts: 3773
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:44 pm
Location: Lexington, Ky.

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