Frank Page

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Frank Page

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:23 am

I grieve over the news that came out yesterday about Frank Page, the President and CEO of the SBC Executive Committee. I tried to access the news from Baptist Press but the website was not working this morning to go to the story. Here is the Baptist News Global release.

https://baptistnews.com/article/southern-baptist-leader-steps-down-over-moral-indiscretion/#.WrzZFUxFx3s

I grieve because Frank Page and I served at the same time in Fayetteville, NC, and I knew him as a fellow pastor while he served at Lafayette Baptist and I served at Lebanon. He was an energetic and innovative pastor in that church and was beloved in the association. I trained in his congregation in the old Continuing Witness Training model of outreach. At that time, he strongly supported women in ministry, though he later changed his direction. I do not know what his indiscretion may have been, but he has my prayers that he and his family may recover from whatever this failure was. Knowing him makes this a sad piece of news for me. Join me in praying for our brother in this time.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:21 pm

In other words, he fessed-up only after he'd been caught, a true act of grace and humility, and probably lied about his move to South Carolina. The real in-your-face to his interim pastorate was even being there on Sunday. All the sweet, kind words of support from his colleagues are sickening. He's earned the scorn and ought to be allowed to wallow in it for a while and read his own sermons on the subject of unfaithfulness. Disgusting!
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Haruo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:14 pm

I don't think we know nearly enough to say what Jim said, but I think we know enough to go beyond what Dave said.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:01 pm

I never knew Rev. Page and I know few details. But it does make me sad.

It also is a reminder how careful clergy need to be to guard themselves against temptation.

I'm required to take a course every three years on healthy clergy boundaries by our conference. In part it is to remind us how to avoid temptation, situations which may compromise our values and morals, or even just situations where we might be accused of something because we were alone with someone we shouldn't have been alone with.

Those of us who are called to preach have a higher responsibility and when we fail the damage to the Church is far greater.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Joseph Patrick » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:50 pm

From Gerry Milligan:
In 1975, at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, Dr. Oscar Thompson started EVERY class, after prayer, with these words, "Young men, watch your selves, keep yourselves pure and do nothing that would cause you to be tempted and do nothing which could lead to accusations" Sometimes he would expand on this telling us who might be at a very small church to have your wife available to "chaperone" during counselling. Good advice then and now.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:02 pm

In 1987, Congress in its wisdom resolved that March would be recognized in perpetuity as Women's History Month. I wondered how women had fared vis-a-vis breaking the glass-ceiling in denominational life so I did some research recently and discovered that the five mainline denominations—PC (USA); Episcopal; United Methodist; ELCA; Christian (Disciples)—are headed by women, as is the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, with each group governed hierarchic-wise by these leaders perhaps along with a tiny group of advisers. These ladies have on their watch the sanctioning of same-sex marriage, ordination of homosexuals, and seemingly a warm-fuzzy philosophy that political-correctness trumps scripture in matters that are strictly black/white and require that no one ever be offended...hugs all around. Already plummeting in membership, these denominations are now in free-fall, largely if not mostly because they are no longer in the world but of the world. Female leadership seems a bit lacking until one remembers that male elitists are also partners in the crimes. Sad.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Haruo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:12 pm

Maggie and Golda.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:59 pm

Jim wrote:In 1987, Congress in its wisdom resolved that March would be recognized in perpetuity as Women's History Month. I wondered how women had fared vis-a-vis breaking the glass-ceiling in denominational life so I did some research recently and discovered that the five mainline denominations—PC (USA); Episcopal; United Methodist; ELCA; Christian (Disciples)—are headed by women, as is the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, with each group governed hierarchic-wise by these leaders perhaps along with a tiny group of advisers. These ladies have on their watch the sanctioning of same-sex marriage, ordination of homosexuals, and seemingly a warm-fuzzy philosophy that political-correctness trumps scripture in matters that are strictly black/white and require that no one ever be offended...hugs all around. Already plummeting in membership, these denominations are now in free-fall, largely if not mostly because they are no longer in the world but of the world. Female leadership seems a bit lacking until one remembers that male elitists are also partners in the crimes. Sad.


I have no idea how you contend that United Methodists are “headed by women.” We are headed by men, women, and lots of other people. But we have no single leader, no presiding Bishop, either male or female. Also, our membership isn’t “plummeting.” Whatever that means. You just make stuff up, don’t you?
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:11 am

Just can't remember your chinmoku for me, can you? Rosemarie Wenner is the current head of the bishops and therefore the head of the whole shooting match. The fact that she resides in Germany is not a factor.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Haruo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:28 am

Jim, could you provide some sort of link or other documentation for your assertion about Bishop Wenner? Looking at the UMC website and Wikipedia I have been unable to find corroboration.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby William Thornton » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:51 am

FP was interim pastor until Jan of this year at my home church near me. We attended a few times. He was well liked there. He was also a good fit as the day-to-day head of Southern Baptists, doing a good job of keeping the rabble together in our common work. There are no excuses of course. His daughter committed suicide a few years ago after a long struggle with depression. That's a burden I wouldn't want to think about carrying for the rest of my life.

He was my favorite denom leader though I didn't know him personally. He stated that he was resigning from "active ministry" immediately.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:36 am

Haruo wrote:Jim, could you provide some sort of link or other documentation for your assertion about Bishop Wenner? Looking at the UMC website and Wikipedia I have been unable to find corroboration.

Wiki has Wenner as head bishop but Bishop Kenneth H. Carter (Florida) was elected last year to the presidency of Bishops, so I erred concerning the good Methodists. Apologies all around.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:41 am

Jim wrote:Just can't remember your chinmoku for me, can you? Rosemarie Wenner is the current head of the bishops and therefore the head of the whole shooting match. The fact that she resides in Germany is not a factor.


Jim, when someone goes after my denomination with baloney I respond.

First of all, the current President of the Council of Bishops is Bishop Bruce Ough.

You don’t understand our polity. Being the President of the Council of Bishops is not “head of the whole shooting match.” We have three branches of church government. The Bishops as a group are the executive branch (as a whole, not the President), the General Conference is the legislative branch and the Bishops can’t even vote in General Conference. We also have a judicial branch called the Judicial Council that decides matters of church law.

The President changes every two years. The President is the person who moderates the meetings. The Bishops make decisions together, the President has no power beyond meeting moderation and being the spokesperson for the will of the whole council.

We aren’t Southern Baptists. We don’t invest one person with broad political and national appointive powers like the SBC President. Occasionally someone has suggested us creating a position of “Presiding Bishop” like in the Episcopal Church. It always gets voted down by the General Conference. We have a democratic system of church government.

As to the baloney about the leadership of women, your sexism there doesn’t deserve a response.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:12 am

Ed: Tim, I think you are again being overly sensitive when you accuse Jim of "going after" your denomination just because he errantly included you all in a list of religious entities headed by women. Those of us who are associated with entities headed by women are the ones he seemed to be attempting to insult. I am surprised that you take such offense at being included in good company .
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:17 am

I am saddened by this news. His leadership succeeded in de-politicizing the executive committee and distancing the SBC headquarters in Nashville from the Patterson-Pressler coalition. Though denominational leaders get tagged with bad numbers that happen during their tenure, I've thought for a long time that Frank Page was the man for this time in the SBC. He was pastor at Gambrell Street Baptist Church in Ft. Worth when I was at Southwestern, and I did a practicum with them in their house church ministry for a semester. He wasn't the designated staff supervisor, but he took an interest in all the students who were serving, and frequently came to the group sessions.
I will join in prayer for this brother, his family, and for whomever else may have been involved, as well as their family.

Jim wrote:In 1987, Congress in its wisdom resolved that March would be recognized in perpetuity as Women's History Month. I wondered how women had fared vis-a-vis breaking the glass-ceiling in denominational life so I did some research recently and discovered that the five mainline denominations—PC (USA); Episcopal; United Methodist; ELCA; Christian (Disciples)—are headed by women, as is the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, with each group governed hierarchic-wise by these leaders perhaps along with a tiny group of advisers. These ladies have on their watch the sanctioning of same-sex marriage, ordination of homosexuals, and seemingly a warm-fuzzy philosophy that political-correctness trumps scripture in matters that are strictly black/white and require that no one ever be offended...hugs all around. Already plummeting in membership, these denominations are now in free-fall, largely if not mostly because they are no longer in the world but of the world. Female leadership seems a bit lacking until one remembers that male elitists are also partners in the crimes. Sad.


This kind of drivel has come to the point where I doubt that the actual insertion of facts into it would change my mind about its complete and total lack of credibility. This is a two-flusher, at least.

Neither the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship or the Disciples of Christ are governed in a "heirarchic-wise" [sic] manner. Within both groups, churches are autonomous, the denominational structure is as well, as are the related institutions, the D of C even more than the Baptists. There is no heirarchical structure in either group. I am not aware of any actual tracking or even a general estimate of the collective membership of CBF that would make it possible to state that their membership is "plummeting,". Clearly, their financial resources are dwindling, but I'm not sure how you would even count their collective "membership" given that the majority of their churches are also dually affiliated with the SBC. And as far as the "plummeting" membership goes, the SBC is losing members at historically high rates as well. at an annual percentage that is well over twice as much as the D of C. The SBC has probably lost significantly more, since their attendance figures show a number that is 11 million less than the total membership.

I was going to comment on the fact that the UMC doesn't have anything close to a single-leadership structure invested with the kind of power you are attributing to them in your broad brush lumping together of "mainliners" but I see Timothy already corrected your error. I would also point out that the UMC, as a body, does not fit your definition of a denomination that has caught the "warm fuzzies" when it comes to same-gender marriage and ordination of homosexuals. They remain opposed to both of those things.

The name "Jim", referencing the member of this board, and the word "credibility" is an obvious oxymoron..
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:38 am

JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Tim, I think you are again being overly sensitive when you accuse Jim of "going after" your denomination just because he errantly included you all in a list of religious entities headed by women. Those of us who are associated with entities headed by women are the ones he seemed to be attempting to insult. I am surprised that you take such offense at being included in good company .


Ed, I’ll admit to being sensitive to fundamentalist clap trap. It comes from long years of listening to Fundamentalists make up things about women clergy, Moderate Baptists, American Baptists, and Methodists too. Fundamentalists like Jim get under my skin because they just make things up to suit their world view. They change or misread the facts to fit their beliefs. It’s maddening.

I pointed out loudly that the President of our Council is a man right now to point out that Jim doesn’t even fact check well. He probably got that from an old Wikipedia article rather than bothering to check out the UMC website. I’m sure the previous presidents of the Council of Bishops did a good job, men or women. Of course their gender doesn’t matter. My current Bishop is a woman and she is a great Christian leader.

The one thing that hasn’t changed from my moves through the SBC, ABC, and now the UMC is that fundamentalism is based largely on falsehoods shouted loudly to try to convince you their lies are true. It’s the same manure, just in a different field.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Tim Bonney » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:42 am

Sandy wrote:I was going to comment on the fact that the UMC doesn't have anything close to a single-leadership structure invested with the kind of power you are attributing to them in your broad brush lumping together of "mainliners" but I see Timothy already corrected your error. I would also point out that the UMC, as a body, does not fit your definition of a denomination that has caught the "warm fuzzies" when it comes to same-gender marriage and ordination of homosexuals. They remain opposed to both of those things.


Thanks for the response and a clear grasp of our polity. As to marriage issues, etc. where we end up with that we will know more about in the next year. But, where we end up has nothing to do with having women leaders or not. It will all be related to what United Methodists nationally together decide what our system will be going forward by a vote of our General Conference, not the Bishops.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby JE Pettibone » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:18 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:Ed: Tim, I think you are again being overly sensitive when you accuse Jim of "going after" your denomination just because he errantly included you all in a list of religious entities headed by women. Those of us who are associated with entities headed by women are the ones he seemed to be attempting to insult. I am surprised that you take such offense at being included in good company .


Ed, I’ll admit to being sensitive to fundamentalist clap trap. It comes from long years of listening to Fundamentalists make up things about women clergy, Moderate Baptists, American Baptists, and Methodists too. Fundamentalists like Jim get under my skin because they just make things up to suit their world view. They change or misread the facts to fit their beliefs. It’s maddening.

I pointed out loudly that the President of our Council is a man right now to point out that Jim doesn’t even fact check well. He probably got that from an old Wikipedia article rather than bothering to check out the UMC website. I’m sure the previous presidents of the Council of Bishops did a good job, men or women. Of course their gender doesn’t matter. My current Bishop is a woman and she is a great Christian leader.

The one thing that hasn’t changed from my moves through the SBC, ABC, and now the UMC is that fundamentalism is based largely on falsehoods shouted loudly to try to convince you their lies are true. It’s the same manure, just in a different field.


Ed" And yet this site (Baptistlife.com) purports being open to discussion the stated policy is;
we recognize the value of varied viewpoints. It is our hope that the Forums will serve to give Baptists everywhere a free and friendly public forum to express themselves and their beliefs.


There is neither Liberal or Fundamentalist in that statement.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:39 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
First of all, the current President of the Council of Bishops is Bishop Bruce Ough.


I corrected my own mistake above but that didn't fit your agenda. You err in the above. Kenneth H. Carter was elected in November 2017 to the Bishop presidency. Maybe you should pay more attention.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:58 pm

Sandy wrote:

The name "Jim", referencing the member of this board, and the word "credibility" are oxymorons, obviously.


Call in a sharp sixth-grader for help and he probably will tell you that you actually meant: The name "Jim", referencing the member of this board, and the word "credibility" is an oxymoron, obviously. Grammar can be such a challenge, especially when one is hyped-up and therefore posting under extra adrenalin-rush in "slur-mode," thus liable to butcher something (language this time) or maybe just bay at the moon or send flowers to Maddow.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:34 pm

Yes, well I was missing my sharp sixth grader. Where was yours when the word, "hierarchic-wise" , which should be "hierarchical," popped into your hyped-up, extra-adrenalin challenged, "slur-mode." Grammar can be such a challenge, but apparently less so than getting the facts straight, so I'll leave my error uncorrected so that it can serve to contrast with the notable mistakes in yours, all of which render your point wrong. I may have butchered a little grammar, but you slaughtered the truth.

As to your comments about Frank Page, see John 8:7.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:34 pm

Sandy wrote:Yes, well I was missing my sharp sixth grader. Where was yours when the word, "hierarchic-wise" , which should be "hierarchical," popped into your hyped-up, extra-adrenalin challenged, "slur-mode." Grammar can be such a challenge, but apparently less so than getting the facts straight, so I'll leave my error uncorrected so that it can serve to contrast with the notable mistakes in yours, all of which render your point wrong.

Well...no. Hierarchic-wise was a perfectly good term used obviously as an adverb describing how and implying action, as any good adverb would. Hierarchic is an adjective used to describe what (entirely passive, no action). So...try something else to satisfy your angst.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Sandy » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:39 pm

Oh, whatever "angst" there was has long since been satisfied by seeing how many times you were wrong. A reasonably smart sixth grader would have done their homework before making these kinds of errors.

1. You were wrong about the UMC. You missed figuring out that they have no singular leader who "runs" the denominations, and you missed the fact that the presiding bishop is male, and has no role other than moderating meetings, but does not determine or influence the agenda or doctrine. The UMC is a "mainline" denomination, but remains opposed to same-gender marriage and the ordination of gays and lesbians.
2. You were wrong about the Disciples of Christ. As a denomination, they have even less of a "hierarchic-like" structure than most Baptists have, and positions on same-gender marriage and ordaining gay and lesbian clergy are made at the local church level. There are some churches in the D of C that have accepted both, but a majority of them have not. They do have a woman who is currently serving as their "presiding minister" but, like Baptists, the denominational structure exists to serve the churches. The acceptance of gay and lesbian ordination by those in the D of C who are favorable toward it happened long before their current presiding minister was selected. And if their membership is "plummeting," and in "free-fall," then those terms must also apply to membership in the SBC, since the attrition rate in the D of C, as part of the "Restoration Movement" is less than half the rate of membership and attendance loss in the SBC.
3. I'd think your familiarity with CBF would prevent you from making such statements about them. The way they've structured their governing board, and the authority it has been given is different, but their authority only extends to the fellowship's executive office itself, and not to any partnering organization or church. There is no hierarchy.
4. The other three mainline denominations you mentioned "sanctioned" same-gender marriage, gay and lesbian ordination, and other positions related to sexual orientation and gender identity well before their current female leadership was in place.

That's not angst, that's satisfaction. Have a Happy Easter, Jim.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:42 pm

Sandy wrote:
4. The other three mainline denominations you mentioned "sanctioned" same-gender marriage, gay and lesbian ordination, and other positions related to sexual orientation and gender identity well before their current female leadership was in place.

That's not angst, that's satisfaction. Have a Happy Easter, Jim.

I didn't say the ladies started the perversion-stuff, only that it is still happening on their watch, i.e., with their imprimatur. I also said that male leadership has been guilty of this stuff as well, never mind its contradiction to both Belief and Nature.
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Re: Frank Page

Postby Jim » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:12 am

JE Pettibone wrote: Those of us who are associated with entities headed by women are the ones he seemed to be attempting to insult. I am surprised that you take such offense at being included in good company .


I attempted to insult no one. I disconnected with SBC account the refusal to ordain women. I merely ran across the March observance on the Internet. There is constant talk about women breaking various glass ceilings - Ferraro, Bachman, Fiorna, (gasp) Hillary - and wondered about the religion establishments and so did the search, noting the facts, as well as the hierarchic denominations they head, also including the fact that men have been in the same category. The CBF, becoming hierarchic according to its latest announcement from "headquarters," is joining the mainliners in jumping off the cliff. That's the extent of it. If you were offended...tough!
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