LA 4 JD

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LA 4 JD

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:41 am

The conversation at "sbcvoices" concerning Louisana's use of CP funds to campaign for Ken Hemphill is interesting.

If you have an interest in seeing the hoopla - click your way to that site and chime in.

At the upcoming campaign cookout using SBC Disaster Relief crews to do the cooking is out of bounds (IMPO). This is just a part of the story.

Maybe if we can get a couple of thousand folks to show up wearing a tee like the one below would send a message and cause a stir.

The tee is not for sale it is just a mock-up of an idea.

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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Sandy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:22 am

Here is the last sentence from the blog post about the Louisiana Baptist disaster relief meetings.

"May God raise up men in this state who will help us throw off the shackles of this ungodly and worldly tyrannical mindset. Will it ever change?"

So there's this kind of animosity surrounding the selection of who is going to serve as the next president of a Christian denomination? Just because someone within a state convention likes one of the candidates better than the other, and is organizing support among a particular group of individuals with whom he has immediate and personal contact, the Louisiana Baptist Convention is being run by an ungodly and worldly tyranny?

First of all, this kind of good-ole-boy, favor granting, personal use of church and denominational resources is a common M.O. among Southern Baptists in particular. It stems from the belief that "of course everyone thinks the way I think," and "nobody will mind if we have a political rally for Ken Hemphill while we are 'practicing' how to fire up our disaster relief kitchen and feed a few hundred people." Southern Baptist entities and groups make rules for themselves that not only allow this type of thing to happen, but which actually set it up, and require it to happen. It is a very ineffective and backward approach to organizing and efficiently conducting business, but the fact that it is suddenly an "ungodly and worldly" tyranny is related solely to the fact that this is being done for a candidate the critic doesn't like. I guarantee, if J.D. Greear were the beneficiary, you wouldn't hear a peep from this source.

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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby William Thornton » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:55 am

I think you are a bit out of touch here. If JDG were the recipient you'd see a lot more folks with their hair on fire. The writer is an LBC pastor or something. There's history....

Looks like, sadly, another hot denominational war. Mods warned of it. I think there is a disgruntled minority rather than a sizable grassroots movement capable of winning a string of elections. We'll see.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Sandy » Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:48 pm

William Thornton wrote:I think you are a bit out of touch here. If JDG were the recipient you'd see a lot more folks with their hair on fire. The writer is an LBC pastor or something. There's history....

Looks like, sadly, another hot denominational war. Mods warned of it. I think there is a disgruntled minority rather than a sizable grassroots movement capable of winning a string of elections. We'll see.


Probably. But I don't think this guy would find that so disagreeable.

Looking at the stuff on SBC Voices, this seems to run a whole lot deeper than just Calvinism or not. It seems like an honest to goodness preacher war over personalities, perks, privileges and prominence.

Sorry, the alliteration was a throwback to Basic Sermon Preparation 101. :wink:
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Jon Estes » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:15 am

Sandy wrote:Here is the last sentence from the blog post about the Louisiana Baptist disaster relief meetings.

"May God raise up men in this state who will help us throw off the shackles of this ungodly and worldly tyrannical mindset. Will it ever change?"

So there's this kind of animosity surrounding the selection of who is going to serve as the next president of a Christian denomination? Just because someone within a state convention likes one of the candidates better than the other, and is organizing support among a particular group of individuals with whom he has immediate and personal contact, the Louisiana Baptist Convention is being run by an ungodly and worldly tyranny?

First of all, this kind of good-ole-boy, favor granting, personal use of church and denominational resources is a common M.O. among Southern Baptists in particular. It stems from the belief that "of course everyone thinks the way I think," and "nobody will mind if we have a political rally for Ken Hemphill while we are 'practicing' how to fire up our disaster relief kitchen and feed a few hundred people." Southern Baptist entities and groups make rules for themselves that not only allow this type of thing to happen, but which actually set it up, and require it to happen. It is a very ineffective and backward approach to organizing and efficiently conducting business, but the fact that it is suddenly an "ungodly and worldly" tyranny is related solely to the fact that this is being done for a candidate the critic doesn't like. I guarantee, if J.D. Greear were the beneficiary, you wouldn't hear a peep from this source.

Would that you, even you, had known on this day the things that make for peace.


If JDG were the beneficiary of such, those at SBCvoices would speak against it also. This is one thing, of several, that set that site above SBCtoday.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Sandy » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:46 am

There would be some who would speak against a state convention or entity supporting J.D. Greear, perhaps at that particular site.

Apparently, last time J.D. Greear ran, he got endorsements from David Platt and Russell Moore. It doesn't appear that there was support in terms of resources, but definite perspectives from them. And no one mentions the letter writing and campaigning done to endorse state convention leaders and within the SBC by Paige Patterson after he secured his SBC entity posts.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:02 pm

Sandy wrote:There would be some who would speak against a state convention or entity supporting J.D. Greear, perhaps at that particular site.

Apparently, last time J.D. Greear ran, he got endorsements from David Platt and Russell Moore. It doesn't appear that there was support in terms of resources, but definite perspectives from them. And no one mentions the letter writing and campaigning done to endorse state convention leaders and within the SBC by Paige Patterson after he secured his SBC entity posts.


If you have past examples of CP funds being used to promote any candidates, then your comment would be fair comparisons. For now, a world of difference between your examples and LA’s abuse of CP funds... even if it is minor.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby William Thornton » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:15 am

Talking points from the anti-Cals make an equivalence between the private, homemade, humorous rap piece on JDG that had clips of a couple of entity heads saying, "It's tricky" and a state convention ED offering the state convention's server and technical expertise to the candidate touted by the anti-Cals. After this was exposed claims were made that no CP funds were used. Questions remain. Looks bad.

No question about that state convention hosting campaign rallies for one candidate.

It's going to be interesting but hopefully not ugly.

My mod lib friends probably rejoice that they are out of such messes although the CBF/LGBTQ mess is more likely to sink that ship than the CalTrad SBC mess.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Sandy » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:58 am

So, any predictions about how the traditionalist vs. Calvinist battle will go? The rhetoric is certainly ugly in some cases, with one blogger calling the LBC administration ungodly and worldly. Most of the rest of the dialogue over there seems to be relatively amiable, though there's a clear line of support for one candidate or the other.

William Thornton wrote: My mod lib friends probably rejoice that they are out of such messes although the CBF/LGBTQ mess is more likely to sink that ship than the CalTrad SBC mess.


I think you're right about that. Honestly, I think that is going to "sink the ship." I do see that SBC calvinists have built some of their own structure and organization though. Whether that's just for fellowship and training, or something they can step into if they decide to leave, it's hard to say.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby William Thornton » Sun Mar 25, 2018 1:26 pm

The SBC hasn't had a Calvinist prez in scores of years. All the CR presidents were highly non-Calvinistic. I don't think electing noncal presidents will change anything. If I had to make a prediction I'd predict a JDG victory.

Louisiana, particularly of the colleges there, has had a lot of acrimony. The ED is rather militant against cals. There is history with the guy who exposed the LBC server thing.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:49 am

Hemphill isn't one of the rockstars, but maybe the "traditionalists" are out of them for the time being. Frank Page was similar in terms of that kind of status. Hemphill has been pretty loyal, though. Though Southwestern went through a pretty steep decline from its days of being the crown jewel of Southern Baptist theological seminaries to being number 3 under his tenure, he seems to have recovered from that.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:55 am

All the above makes me glad my denomination doesn't have a single denomination wide President. It seems like a flash point for differences. And, as autonomous as Baptists are, it seems odd to invest one person with that much, at least titular, authority.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby William Thornton » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:16 am

Sandy wrote:Hemphill isn't one of the rockstars, but maybe the "traditionalists" are out of them for the time being. Frank Page was similar in terms of that kind of status. Hemphill has been pretty loyal, though. Though Southwestern went through a pretty steep decline from its days of being the crown jewel of Southern Baptist theological seminaries to being number 3 under his tenure, he seems to have recovered from that.


Yes, he is.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Sandy » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:29 am

Tim Bonney wrote:All the above makes me glad my denomination doesn't have a single denomination wide President. It seems like a flash point for differences. And, as autonomous as Baptists are, it seems odd to invest one person with that much, at least titular, authority.


The system and the problem with the power vested in the SBC presidency was a problem long before the resurgence came to power. Southern Baptists like having powerful officers scattered throughout the bureacracy so that friends can help friends when they need it. The "friends" have changed, but the structure, which conservatives complained about before they controlled it, hasn't changed very much. Autonomy can stay intact as far as churches and their relationships go, but the guy who gets the title and the appointing power controls who gets to run everything.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby JE Pettibone » Mon Mar 26, 2018 10:52 am

William Thornton wrote:
Sandy wrote:Hemphill isn't one of the rockstars, but maybe the "traditionalists" are out of them for the time being. Frank Page was similar in terms of that kind of status. Hemphill has been pretty loyal, though. Though Southwestern went through a pretty steep decline from its days of being the crown jewel of Southern Baptist theological seminaries to being number 3 under his tenure, he seems to have recovered from that.


Yes, he is.


Ed: No surprise here but I am not convinced that Southwestern was ever the "crown jewel of Southern Baptist theological Seminaries. If I had thought that it was I would have gone there both in 1963 and again in 1990. I believe each of the six BC Seminaries have traditionally fit a particular niche for different types of students. I chose Southern because it met my needs. It's reputation for being the most academically challenging caused me a great deal of hesitation, however I needed
that challenge.
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Re: LA 4 JD

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:16 am

Sandy wrote:
The system and the problem with the power vested in the SBC presidency was a problem long before the resurgence came to power. Southern Baptists like having powerful officers scattered throughout the bureacracy so that friends can help friends when they need it. The "friends" have changed, but the structure, which conservatives complained about before they controlled it, hasn't changed very much. Autonomy can stay intact as far as churches and their relationships go, but the guy who gets the title and the appointing power controls who gets to run everything.


That is basically how I remember it too Sandy. American Baptists have a President. But they do not have the kind of broad appointment powers that it seems the SBC President does.

United Methodist Bishops share the executive power. (And it is limited too.) They elect a Council President. But the job is passed around every year and amounts to more a moderator than anything else.

Southern Baptists don't want Bishops and yet they create a position with more power than most Bishops. It has turned into a head scratcher for me.
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