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Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:31 pm
by Jim
Haruo wrote:Heck, far as I can see Arminius was a Calvinist. Aristotle was a Platonist.

Naw...Arminius was the Martin Luther-type concerning Calvinism, wasn't he? As for A & P, they were just simple pederasts.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:39 pm
by Haruo
Jim wrote:
Haruo wrote:Heck, far as I can see Arminius was a Calvinist. Aristotle was a Platonist.

Naw...Arminius was the Martin Luther-type concerning Calvinism, wasn't he? As for A & P, they were just simple pederasts.

Sounds like equating Thomas Jefferson with his slaveholding.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:55 pm
by Rvaughn
One thing some SBC folks seem to find troubling is not about Ken Hemphill personally. Rather it is the fact that some “Southern Baptists who are concerned about the direction of the Convention…asked that he allow his name to be placed before the Convention for consideration.” Some of the names in the press release are likely viewed as “Anti-Cals” (some perhaps “rabid”). So, the fact that some of these “Anti-Cals” say they sought him out troubles some folks.
http://baptistmessage.com/ken-hemphill-sbc-president-nominee/

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:42 pm
by William Thornton
Rvaughn wrote:One thing some SBC folks seem to find troubling is not about Ken Hemphill personally. Rather it is the fact that some “Southern Baptists who are concerned about the direction of the Convention…asked that he allow his name to be placed before the Convention for consideration.” Some of the names in the press release are likely viewed as “Anti-Cals” (some perhaps “rabid”). So, the fact that some of these “Anti-Cals” say they sought him out troubles some folks.
http://baptistmessage.com/ken-hemphill-sbc-president-nominee/


It is troublesome. The anti-Cals have declared their purpose to elect likeminded presidents "year-after-year-after-year" until sufficient trustees are seated to act according to their wishes. The election this year has been called by the anti-Cals a "watershed" election.

Mod/libs here may find this familiar.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:35 pm
by Haruo
Yeah, it worked last time, why not again?

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:37 pm
by Haruo
Is there a good set of Arminian/Free-Will principles that acrostically spell out PANSY? That could be useful in this fight. For which side I'm not sure.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:40 pm
by Haruo
It can be fun reading up on the Bitcoins of the 1630s, namely TULIP Bulbs. Not sure exactly what the Lord's point was in preordaining that particular acronym.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:29 pm
by Jon Estes
William Thornton wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:One thing some SBC folks seem to find troubling is not about Ken Hemphill personally. Rather it is the fact that some “Southern Baptists who are concerned about the direction of the Convention…asked that he allow his name to be placed before the Convention for consideration.” Some of the names in the press release are likely viewed as “Anti-Cals” (some perhaps “rabid”). So, the fact that some of these “Anti-Cals” say they sought him out troubles some folks.
http://baptistmessage.com/ken-hemphill-sbc-president-nominee/


It is troublesome. The anti-Cals have declared their purpose to elect likeminded presidents "year-after-year-after-year" until sufficient trustees are seated to act according to their wishes. The election this year has been called by the anti-Cals a "watershed" election.

Mod/libs here may find this familiar.


KH may be well known in some circles but the watershed moment would need an Adrian Rogers type figure. There isn’t one in the SBC, on either side of this issue, at this time that I am aware of.

I’m sure SWBTS will have many students going as messengers from their church. When I was at Criswell 79-83, we were strongly encouraged to go every year. Hoping SEBTS & SBTS can get their students there.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:20 pm
by John Sneed
I will tell you all something funny. I forget if it was 1998 or 99, but I was at the Midwest Founders Conference being held at FBC St. Peters, Missouri. A friend and I were having lunch and talking about this very topic. He thought sooner or later, there was going to be a fight. I told him, "It'll never happen. Calvinists and Arminians (the term we were using at the time) had been in the SBC together from the start." I said, "They may rub each the wrong was from time to time, but they won't fight." I felt there was too much historical precedent for Calvinists and non-Calvinists treating each other like beloved brothers and sisters that they would never hold such animosity against each other. All this proves definitively that I am neither a prophet nor the son of a prophet. Now, I meet people who actually think a Calvinist and a Satan worshipper is the same thing. I have seen writers advocate that every Calvinist in the SBC be denied fellowship for being non-Christians. To say I am surprised by all this would be an understatement. I never saw this coming.

John Sneed

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:20 am
by Dave Roberts
Jon Estes wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:Calvinist: J. D. Greear
Anti-Cal: Ken Hemphill


I am hoping KH is simply a non-Calvinist (where I think Gaines would land). Being anti-Cal is problematic to me.


Let me offer a couple of bits of background here. I haven't followed SBC stuff for a long time. This is too interesting

First, I knew Ken Hemphill's father, Fritz Hemphill, a long-time pastor in North Carolina. Fritz was an identified moderate leader in the NC Convention back 40 years ago.

Second, I was in seminary with Ken from 1969-72. Ken was always in a hurry to get somewhere. George Clark, author of "Brother Goodbody and the Red Brick Church," who created humorous sketches of church life, created a character in those days named Brother Comer, the up and coming guy engaged in self-promotion. Seminary contemporaries tagged Ken, behind his back, with that appellation.

Third, Ken was my parents' pastor for four years before he became more prominent. He tried to build the church on his preaching and teaching. It grew while he was there based on his ability to attract a certain group of people, but six months after Ken left, the church had the same congregation it had before he came. My dad never cared for Ken because he didn't spend any time with the church family but was always off somewhere giving conferences or promoting his books. He has continued to come back every time he published something to have a book signing.

Fourth, Ken then went to FBC in Norfolk where he finally discovered that you had to build people into the church fabric and became a promoteer of Sunday School. Always found that interesting, This was the time when he found that his future in the SBC meant grabbing onto the Takeover Movement, so the former moderate and promoter of women in ministry took a hard right turn.

Fifth, when Randall Lolley was locked out of his offices in a purge at SWBTS, Ken became the savior of SW. Didn't take long to get promoted into denominational safety. Why he is running now, only God knows, but I suspect he is Paige Patterson's candidate to give a non-Cal option.

Enough said, it's not my fight.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:02 am
by Jon Estes
Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Rvaughn wrote:Calvinist: J. D. Greear
Anti-Cal: Ken Hemphill


I am hoping KH is simply a non-Calvinist (where I think Gaines would land). Being anti-Cal is problematic to me.


Let me offer a couple of bits of background here. I haven't followed SBC stuff for a long time. This is too interesting

First, I knew Ken Hemphill's father, Fritz Hemphill, a long-time pastor in North Carolina. Fritz was an identified moderate leader in the NC Convention back 40 years ago.

Second, I was in seminary with Ken from 1969-72. Ken was always in a hurry to get somewhere. George Clark, author of "Brother Goodbody and the Red Brick Church," who created humorous sketches of church life, created a character in those days named Brother Comer, the up and coming guy engaged in self-promotion. Seminary contemporaries tagged Ken, behind his back, with that appellation.

Third, Ken was my parents' pastor for four years before he became more prominent. He tried to build the church on his preaching and teaching. It grew while he was there based on his ability to attract a certain group of people, but six months after Ken left, the church had the same congregation it had before he came. My dad never cared for Ken because he didn't spend any time with the church family but was always off somewhere giving conferences or promoting his books. He has continued to come back every time he published something to have a book signing.

Fourth, Ken then went to FBC in Norfolk where he finally discovered that you had to build people into the church fabric and became a promoteer of Sunday School. Always found that interesting, This was the time when he found that his future in the SBC meant grabbing onto the Takeover Movement, so the former moderate and promoter of women in ministry took a hard right turn.

Fifth, when Randall Lolley was locked out of his offices in a purge at SWBTS, Ken became the savior of SW. Didn't take long to get promoted into denominational safety. Why he is running now, only God knows, but I suspect he is Paige Patterson's candidate to give a non-Cal option.

Enough said, it's not my fight.


It sounds like you are saying KH was a moderate at one time but offer no evidence other than his father was. Would love to see your support for his supporting women in ministry.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:47 am
by Jim
Haruo wrote:Is there a good set of Arminian/Free-Will principles that acrostically spell out PANSY? That could be useful in this fight. For which side I'm not sure.


Pansy Tulip:
Priesthood Authority Not Systemic Yammering Toasting Unilateral Laic Impudent Posturing

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:53 am
by Dave Roberts
Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:Let me offer a couple of bits of background here. I haven't followed SBC stuff for a long time. This is too interesting

First, I knew Ken Hemphill's father, Fritz Hemphill, a long-time pastor in North Carolina. Fritz was an identified moderate leader in the NC Convention back 40 years ago.

Second, I was in seminary with Ken from 1969-72. Ken was always in a hurry to get somewhere. George Clark, author of "Brother Goodbody and the Red Brick Church," who created humorous sketches of church life, created a character in those days named Brother Comer, the up and coming guy engaged in self-promotion. Seminary contemporaries tagged Ken, behind his back, with that appellation.

Third, Ken was my parents' pastor for four years before he became more prominent. He tried to build the church on his preaching and teaching. It grew while he was there based on his ability to attract a certain group of people, but six months after Ken left, the church had the same congregation it had before he came. My dad never cared for Ken because he didn't spend any time with the church family but was always off somewhere giving conferences or promoting his books. He has continued to come back every time he published something to have a book signing.

Fourth, Ken then went to FBC in Norfolk where he finally discovered that you had to build people into the church fabric and became a promoteer of Sunday School. Always found that interesting, This was the time when he found that his future in the SBC meant grabbing onto the Takeover Movement, so the former moderate and promoter of women in ministry took a hard right turn.

Fifth, when Randall Lolley was locked out of his offices in a purge at SWBTS, Ken became the savior of SW. Didn't take long to get promoted into denominational safety. Why he is running now, only God knows, but I suspect he is Paige Patterson's candidate to give a non-Cal option.

Enough said, it's not my fight.


It sounds like you are saying KH was a moderate at one time but offer no evidence other than his father was. Would love to see your support for his supporting women in ministry.


Unlike Frank Paige, Ken's support was never in print, only in discussions around seminary. Actually, he almost never put anything controversial to either side in print.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:36 am
by William Thornton
I'd assess Dave's comment above as very solid.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:43 am
by Dave Roberts
William Thornton wrote:I'd assess Dave's comment above as very solid.

Thanks, William. You're much more in touch with SBC matters.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:38 pm
by Tim Bonney
I won't comment other than to say it is just interesting reading to see what directions the SBC has gone post takeover.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:44 pm
by Jim
It's interesting to see the back-and-forth here of those who discuss doctrine, theology, whatever, not least because the opinions are often if not most of the time diametrically opposed, though all have studied the same bible/scriptures and/or graduated with various degrees from seminaries. I was raised Southern Baptist but moved to CBF mainly on the woman-ordination thing. I fear the CBF is heading down the same road as the main-liners while the SBC stands steadily on biblical principles, though the Calvinism (or most of it) is anathema to me. The layman has only the translations of the Bible to study and decide what he believes. I finally did that taking into account the writers, time-frames, canonizing, etc., and using a good concordance(s) and even a Greek NT translated into English. I set about writing my own “unlearned” theology, unencumbered by seminary influences. It turned into a book predicated mostly on the illogical morass of the Abstract of Principles, also (to me) a theological nightmare. I am certain no one in this forum would be interested in the book, found here: http://www.clarkscorner.org/L-Theo.html, but might perhaps find something thought-provoking in my discussion of the Abstract, which is attached.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:07 am
by Haruo
Jim wrote:...a Greek NT translated into English.

How does that differ from any other English NT, if at all?

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:42 pm
by Jim
I could have gotten a Japanese translation but it wouldn't have been much help.

Re: Two candidates for SBC President, 2018

PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:12 pm
by Sandy
Jim wrote:It's interesting to see the back-and-forth here of those who discuss doctrine, theology, whatever, not least because the opinions are often if not most of the time diametrically opposed, though all have studied the same bible/scriptures and/or graduated with various degrees from seminaries.


"Diametrically opposed" within the context of the theology and doctrinal background of those who participate in the discussions. Against the whole backdrop and range of Biblical theology, I think most of us here probably fall in the same quadrant.

Jim wrote: The layman has only the translations of the Bible to study and decide what he believes.


A layman has any tool that any scholar has. It's a matter of picking them up and using them. It is not easy to wade through Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew texts, the latter being an impossibility for me. The translations all bear the biases and theological perspectives of the translators. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your approach, looking at the historical and cultural background in which the text was written, with the concordance and Greek NT, "unencumbered by seminary influences". Sounds like the Bible study group associated with the Quaker meeting I attend. It's actually quite refreshing, and something I look forward to each week, after years and years of pursuing "book studies" by well known authors, and the latest video-study guide with accompanying study Bible named after some celebrity pastor.