Transition in Oklahoma

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Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Sandy » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:37 pm

https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/ba ... -director/

A seminary classmate, though he was in a different program, and commuted. I believe our paths crossed in a couple of classes. I would imagine he fits well with the conservative posture of the Oklahoma state convention, though he was at Southwestern during the Dilday years.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:50 pm

He is an unknown to me. Maybe Flick can give us a perspective.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby David Flick » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:49 am

Sandy wrote:https://www.baptiststandard.com/news/ba ... -director/

A seminary classmate, though he was in a different program, and commuted. I believe our paths crossed in a couple of classes. I would imagine he fits well with the conservative posture of the Oklahoma state convention, though he was at Southwestern during the Dilday years.

    To be honest, I don't follow BGCO denominational politics much any more. I don't know Dilbeck personally but I have followed his climb to the top through the years with only a mild interest. He is and always was a political climber. He's a gifted speaker/communicator and is politically in the same camp with Anthony Jordan. Virtually nothing happens in the BGCO without Jordan's approval. I suspect, (my opinion exclusively) that Jordan hand-picked Dilbeck to succeed him. Dilbeck goes to the Ex-Director position from Quail Springs Baptist Church, which is one of the most prominent churches in the BGCO. Quoting this guy...

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    There's another transition occurring in Baptist life that involves an Oklahoma pastor. Oklahoma pastor named executive director of Baptist Center for Ethics Mitch is a personal friend of mine and is an excellent choice to succeed Robert Parham. I have known Mitch since before he became pastor of NorthHaven Church. Good man. Outstanding choice.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Rvaughn » Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:41 am

David, just curious, in looking at this I notice NorthHaven Church is partnered with both the Cooperating Baptist Fellowship of Oklahoma and the Baptist General Convention of Texas. Is that rather common or rare among Oklahoma CBF churches?
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Sandy » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Looking at the identification on websites, and the Texas Baptist Annual, I see three CBFO congregations, out of the 21 total, which are affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas. NorthHaven is one, Spring Creek in Oklahoma City, and Northwest in Ardmore are the other two I can identify. There may be more.

Since the split in the Texas conventions, the Baptist General Convention has opened up affiliation and membership to churches from other states. I don't think there's a large number of them, but maybe a couple dozen who are more comfortable with their theological position, based on the BFM 1963 instead of the 2000 version, and with the fact that the BGCT has a relationship with CBF, whereas other state conventions are pushing churches out if they are dually affiliated with the CBF. Last I recall, all of the out of state churches in the BGCT were also CBF.

That might be an option for churches that get kicked out of the Kentucky convention because of their CBF affiliation. If there are enough of them, they can form their own association and affiliate with the BGCT.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby JE Pettibone » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:50 am

Sandy wrote:Looking at the identification on websites, and the Texas Baptist Annual, I see three CBFO congregations, out of the 21 total, which are affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas. NorthHaven is one, Spring Creek in Oklahoma City, and Northwest in Ardmore are the other two I can identify. There may be more.

Since the split in the Texas conventions, the Baptist General Convention has opened up affiliation and membership to churches from other states. I don't think there's a large number of them, but maybe a couple dozen who are more comfortable with their theological position, based on the BFM 1963 instead of the 2000 version, and with the fact that the BGCT has a relationship with CBF, whereas other state conventions are pushing churches out if they are dually affiliated with the CBF. Last I recall, all of the out of state churches in the BGCT were also CBF.

That might be an option for churches that get kicked out of the Kentucky convention because of their CBF affiliation. If there are enough of them, they can form their own association and affiliate with the BGCT.


Ed: Sandy there is already a functioning Kentucky/Indiana region of CBF. If there churcues find some benefit in being affiliated with a denominational entity I would suggest they explore the 3 contiguous ABC regions in (Indiana, Illinois or Ohio).
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:10 pm

Ed, I think ABC/Indiana became ABC/Indiana and Kentucky a few years ago to welcome in a couple of Kentucky churches. That might be the first place to check for such churches. Does the ABC allow churches within the bounds of one region to affiliate with a different ABC region? I honestly don't remember how that works now.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Haruo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:37 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Ed, I think ABC/Indiana became ABC/Indiana and Kentucky a few years ago to welcome in a couple of Kentucky churches. That might be the first place to check for such churches. Does the ABC allow churches within the bounds of one region to affiliate with a different ABC region? I honestly don't remember how that works now.

I think so. Evergreen's geographic spread overlapped with ABCNW from the get-go, and now extends from Alaska to California to Venezuela to Utah in addition to its Puget Sound/Seattle-area center. The status of the Venezuela church vis-a-vis ABC, that I'm not sure of. There was initially some sort of turf issue with the SBC I think.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Sandy » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:24 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
Sandy wrote:Looking at the identification on websites, and the Texas Baptist Annual, I see three CBFO congregations, out of the 21 total, which are affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas. NorthHaven is one, Spring Creek in Oklahoma City, and Northwest in Ardmore are the other two I can identify. There may be more.

Since the split in the Texas conventions, the Baptist General Convention has opened up affiliation and membership to churches from other states. I don't think there's a large number of them, but maybe a couple dozen who are more comfortable with their theological position, based on the BFM 1963 instead of the 2000 version, and with the fact that the BGCT has a relationship with CBF, whereas other state conventions are pushing churches out if they are dually affiliated with the CBF. Last I recall, all of the out of state churches in the BGCT were also CBF.

That might be an option for churches that get kicked out of the Kentucky convention because of their CBF affiliation. If there are enough of them, they can form their own association and affiliate with the BGCT.


Ed: Sandy there is already a functioning Kentucky/Indiana region of CBF. If there churcues find some benefit in being affiliated with a denominational entity I would suggest they explore the 3 contiguous ABC regions in (Indiana, Illinois or Ohio).


Yes, there is, but up to this point, they haven't been forced to choose between CBF or the SBC to say in the state convention. The BGCT offers an option to affiliate that doesn't require CP contributions to the SBC. Only a few Kentucky churches have severed their SBC ties.

When CBF began getting better organized and moving forward, and as state conventions and the SBC became more aggresive in their push to require churches to get off the fence, I thought that the logical pathway for denominational affiliation for CBF congregations pushed away would be to seek fellowship and affiliation with ABC-USA. It seemed to me, from a theological and fellowship perspective, that rather than re-inent the wheel and form a new denomination, or some kind of pseudo-denominational structure, that joining with the already existing ABC-USA would be the way to go. But from what I have observed, including from discussions up close in one of the larger, leading CBF congregations, there's not been a lot of interest in doing that. Whether it is the differences in the structure of the organization, or that it's just a different missions program, or it's "theirs, not ours," it doesn't seem that many CBF or ex-SBC congregations have made the move to affiliate with the ABC-USA. I know when our church in Houston began to consider severing ties with the SBC, as it eventually did, affiliation with ABC-USA was discussed once, voted down, and never considered again.

And Ed, you probably have some insight into this more than I do, but across the board, with fewer than 200 of the estimated 1,800 or so CBF supporting churches actually severing their SBC ties, the number of them that have joined ABC-USA must be considerably smaller than that. I wonder, too, if ABC-USA isn't really actively seeking, or overwhelmingly open to a group of former Southern Baptists coming in, invevitably affecting the culture of the denomination. If you accept CBF's numbers in terms of churches and estimated membership, it is about half the size of ABC-USA. Maybe they don't want that many former Southern Baptist churches coming in and changing things.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Haruo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:59 pm

I think for lot of American Baptists, Southern Baptist clergy coming into our fold have to be subjected to "extreme vetting" as if they were Somali refugees or something. Once they pass, they can apply for citizenship on the fast track.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:01 am

Tim Bonney wrote:Ed, I think ABC/Indiana became ABC/Indiana and Kentucky a few years ago to welcome in a couple of Kentucky churches. That might be the first place to check for such churches. Does the ABC allow churches within the bounds of one region to affiliate with a different ABC region? I honestly don't remember how that works now.


Ed: Yes Tim, some ABC regions have accepted churches which are located in other jurisdictions. Most notably Evergreen and Rochester - Genesee. (SP) which seem to have churches all over the map. Evergreen more so than (R-G)
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:20 am

Haruo wrote:I think for lot of American Baptists, Southern Baptist clergy coming into our fold have to be subjected to "extreme vetting" as if they were Somali refugees or something. Once they pass, they can apply for citizenship on the fast track.


Ed: Hauro, I see nothing extreme about the vetting required for Clergy coming into the ABC fold from other denominations. What is it that you consider to be extreme?
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Sandy » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:20 am

What is the vetting requirement for clergy coming into ABC-USA from another denomination? And are the churches required to call only ABC-USA endorsed pastors and staff? I'm aware of at least one ABC-USA congregation who has a pastor they've had for a long time who never, as far as I know, went through any vetting process when he was called from an SBC congregation.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Haruo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:17 pm

JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:I think for lot of American Baptists, Southern Baptist clergy coming into our fold have to be subjected to "extreme vetting" as if they were Somali refugees or something. Once they pass, they can apply for citizenship on the fast track.


Ed: Hauro, I see nothing extreme about the vetting required for Clergy coming into the ABC fold from other denominations. What is it that you consider to be extreme?

I'm not talking about a requirement from ABCUSA to vet anybody. I'm saying lots of ABCUSA people feel nervous about SBC personnel coming in. I've more than once heard the "wolves in sheep's clothing" line used of them, and while in some cases it may be true, I'm inclined to think most of it is analogous to the Trump base's feelings about Muslims.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby JE Pettibone » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:07 pm

Haruo wrote:
JE Pettibone wrote:
Haruo wrote:I think for lot of American Baptists, Southern Baptist clergy coming into our fold have to be subjected to "extreme vetting" as if they were Somali refugees or something. Once they pass, they can apply for citizenship on the fast track.


Ed: Hauro, I see nothing extreme about the vetting required for Clergy coming into the ABC fold from other denominations. What is it that you consider to be extreme?


Hauro: I'm not talking about a requirement from ABCUSA to vet anybody. I'm saying lots of ABCUSA people feel nervous about SBC personnel coming in. I've more than once heard the "wolves in sheep's clothing" line used of them, and while in some cases it may be true, I'm inclined to think most of it is analogous to the Trump base's feelings about Muslims.


Ed: Trudy and I are well aware of both sides of this perplexing issue. We felt the distance when we moved from SBC to ABC-USA and we need to confess creating some distance when exposed to people including clergy who have just recently left the SBC. Yet some of our favorite people have no plans to leave the SBC.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Sandy » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:08 am

What are the denominational requirements for someone moving from a Southern Baptist church to an ABC-USA congregation in a pastoral role, if any? If the churches are independent and autonomous, do they have to follow denominational guidelines for calling pastors and ministers?
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Haruo » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:32 am

If a church calls someone, that's it. If the one called doesn't measure up to the denominational (regional) standard, then the denomination will not aid her job search when she decides to move on, and if she is listed in a denominational directory, her name is likely to be followed by "(LO)" ("local ordination"). But I don't think there's any particular bar or protocol for those of SBC background. The barrier is one of culture, and often of self-protective reflexes on the part of the ABCers involved. The regional standard generally has to do with having an MDiv, taking a course on ABC history, that sort of thing, I think. Of course I really have no idea what I am talking about. ;)
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:59 am

Haruo wrote:I think for lot of American Baptists, Southern Baptist clergy coming into our fold have to be subjected to "extreme vetting" as if they were Somali refugees or something. Once they pass, they can apply for citizenship on the fast track.


The (unofficial) vetting I received in Indiana had a lot to do with a couple of SBC related pastors who became a pastor of an ABC congregation and then talked them into pulling out and joining the SBC. It only happened a couple of times. But it was enough to make ABC/IN ask careful questions of former SBC pastors coming in.

See below for the more “official” vetting.
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Re: Transition in Oklahoma

Postby Tim Bonney » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:02 am

Sandy wrote:What are the denominational requirements for someone moving from a Southern Baptist church to an ABC-USA congregation in a pastoral role, if any? If the churches are independent and autonomous, do they have to follow denominational guidelines for calling pastors and ministers?


If you want to be recognized within the denomination and region (not local church) as an ABC pastor then you have to receive regional approval. In Indiana that meant meeting a couple of times with a committee and taking a class in ABC/USA history. It was not an overly strict process from that perspective. I was not re-ordained. My previous ordination was recognized. Honestly the vetting process for the UMC was way more complex and difficult.
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